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Royals Defeat White Sox for Sixth Straight Victory

Royal second baseman Johnny Giavotella. (Photo by Ed Zurga/Getty Images)

So much to say about this game and so little to say at the same time.

  • Lots of discussion during the game thread about the fact that the Royals actually have a good offense (and might next year). I'm not used to it either.
  • This is really a matter for another post, but the doubles thing is kinda stupid and kinda cool. I think records that take more than three words to explain are iffy (like Butler's annoying streak of hits in a series), and, well, the K is a great doubles park, which no one ever mentions. But anyway, we've seen so many Royals lineups that are: bad hitter who the manager thinks is fast - a guy who sucks - an ok hitter - Billy Butler - some random veteran- four of the worst hitters in the AL. This is different.
  •  A borderline signature game for Moose, who blasted his third home run, added two singles, and randomly stole a base.
  • Ned Yost's pay is directly died to how often Tim Collins and Chris Getz play.

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Do these effectively hide my thunder?

by splitty on Sep 16, 2011 11:33 PM EDT reply actions  

keeper league-Gordon or Hosmer

5 man keeper…I love Gordon, always have…grabbed him on free agent wire week 1…
problem is I traded Youk for Hosmer with plans to make Hosmer my 5th keeper…

my other 4 are Braun, the fat vegetarian, Tulo, and Ellsbury

who do u keep ? its a head to head league with 6 offense categories…

by JoeRanda on Sep 17, 2011 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

is one of the categories Awesomeness?

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Sep 17, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm Not Going

To your wedding.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Sep 17, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’ll never live that down.

"Gently thinking backwards on the psychedelic promises God made to me in the dark."

- David Berman

by Crooow on Sep 17, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

It just sounded like Jeff Montgomery said

“Eric Hosmer executed Matt Thornton”

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!

by KeepItCopacetic on Sep 16, 2011 11:37 PM EDT reply actions  

A Molina With

A walkoff gapper vs the Yankees . Yay!

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Sep 16, 2011 11:45 PM EDT reply actions  

It should be a decent offense next season

I’m not sure how much better it will be overall, given that Melky, Frenchy, and Gordon are all having likely career seasons (and have all stayed healthy, an uncommented-upon semi-miracle, at least in Gordon’s case), which means likely regression will cancel out expected improvements from Hos, Moose, and maybe Giavotella. Even in Moose’s case, he could be pretty bad at the plate next season and still be substantially more productive than he has been this season. I’m not sure what the future holds for him, but I find it pretty unlikely that he’s really as bad as he’s performed this season.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 16, 2011 11:47 PM EDT reply actions  

at least it won't be painful

I try to stay level-headed, but even with his ups and downs, Hosmer is really exciting. From a “neutral” perpsective, his season has just been decent. Given that he’s 21, though… Who knows? Maybe he’ll have a “sophomore slump.” He might also have a monster 2012.

Still think Hos, Butler, and Gordon are the only three hitters on the team I feel confident in saying will be above average next season. At least two of the likely sinkholes are defensively good (Perez, Hercules). Moose is his own weird world.

Second base is going to be a problem, I think.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 16, 2011 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's really hard not to get insanely excited about Hosmer.

I watch and think to myself that this is the Son of God on the field and he’s performing miracles just for me.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at Royalscentricity and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Sep 17, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, sorry.

It’s me. Sorry, dude.

Nick Swisher is handsome.

by ChrisCEIT on Sep 17, 2011 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

2B is a huge sink hole

given that at least Sal Perez gives us sillies. I think if they went a weird FA with Orlando Hudson the Royals could do well…

I’m still reaching for that monster FA deal for Sabathia and/or the trade for Dan Haren.

Nick Swisher is handsome.

by ChrisCEIT on Sep 17, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think best case scenario Moose becomes Garret Anderson

… with Moore giving him a fairly bad long term contract, but hopefully we can handle it

by Freneau on Sep 17, 2011 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

as long as Moore waits until his last arb year to do it

after making the WS at least once, then I’ll take it

Nick Swisher is handsome.

by ChrisCEIT on Sep 17, 2011 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

i'd take garret anderson

though i’d hope he’d walk a little more, as anderson seemingly refused to walk in his day

by BeauJackson on Sep 17, 2011 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is that just a estimate from the gut or did you run the numbers?

I’m surprised that the combination of more games and expected improvement from the young guys would be completely cancelled out by regression from guys near their career peak (age wise). The young guys should all be on a relatively steep part of the uphill and I’d imagine that at least some of the career-year performance from the OFs is attributable to them hitting their aging peak. Do we really expect them to drop off by so much next year (in rate stats and GP) that it cancels out all the expected improvement from the young IFs?

by KSinDC on Sep 17, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe

But if you add regression with the likelihood of injury for a key player, then the equation changes some.

That being said, the offensive performance now is adequate for our division. We just need to get better at preventing runs.

by bas on Sep 17, 2011 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

A couple weeks ago (don't remember when)

I actually did a basic number-crunch w/ next year’s expected starting lineup and Oliver’s updated projections and the projected 2012 wOBA of that group was the same as whatever the team’s 2011 wOBA was at the time. There are other variables, of course, like thee players who aren’t on the team anymore (although it’s not clear whether that helps and hurts the comparative offensive outlook for next season, given Betemit’s offensive contribution).

As for age adjustments and regression, remember that those are two separate things. Component skills age differently, so that might make a difference, but most overall hitter curves peak around 26 or 27, which means and Gordon and Francouer and people like that are estimated to be at their “peak age” this season.

But it isn’t the aging of Gordon, Francoeur, etc. that probably does most of the “canceling,” it is regression to the mean generally and in specific cases of past performance. In Gordon’s case, there is less of a record of playing time in past seasons, which means that systems regress him more to the mean (and his heavy reliance on BABIP this season, although not the total basis for his performance, is a big part of it, and that typically gets regressed more). That also adds more uncertainty to the projection, but it is as likely to be too high as too low.

Everyone who performs above or below average is projected to be closer to average than observed performance. The more performance records we have, though, the less they are regressed because of more data. However, that really doesn’t help guys like Melky and Francoeur, whose relevant seasons (probably 2008-2010) are, well, really, really terrible. Yes, Jeff Francoeur is having a nice, above-average season with the bat in 2011. But it isn’t like he was a part-timer in past seasons. From 2008-2010 he was not only one of the four worst qualified hitters in baseball (look at the few hitters who were worse and think about it for a minute), but he has over 1700 PA during that time. Those didn’t go away, and shouldn’t.

That isn’t to say that the youth of Hosmer, et. al. doesn’t add more “upside,” as young players with small MLB track records have greater uncertainty in their projections. Of course, that also cuts both ways (cf. Heyward, Jason). The systems just pick the midpoint.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
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by Matt Klaassen on Sep 17, 2011 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

quick note

OLIVER has in-season updated projections for future seasons, and while a few years down the road need to be taken with a shaker of salt, this far along I would imagine that the 2012 projections are probably pretty close to what they will be during the off-season (pending whatever changes Brian Cartwright makes in his aging curves, etc.)

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 17, 2011 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

How do you regress the young guys?

Actually, it’s a two-part question:
1) How do you regress rookies like Hosmer, who have no major league track record except this year. Use MLEs? Not regress? Regress to league average?
2) As a young player moves up the aging curve, his expected performance moves up due to aging curve effects, but each season (assuming an unusual case that tracks the aging curve exactly) is not only better than the average, it’s better than any season that came before. Which effect predominates for, say, a 24-year old in his 4th year in the league? The expected improvement as he continues to move up the aging curve or the expected regression as his age-24 season is better than all of his previous seasons and certainly better than the average of the three?

by KSinDC on Sep 17, 2011 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

the same way you regress anyone else

to the average of the population of which they are a part. That varies from system to system, of course, although it doesn’t make a huge difference from year-to-year.

I’m not sure what you’re asking with the second question. Regression and aging adjustments are two separate steps, one doesn’t “predominate” over the other. Regression

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 17, 2011 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe I'm asking the question wrong

or maybe I’m asking an impossible question to answer,

But I’m wondering whether, given a player who had been in the leagues 4 years, who is 24, who has improved each year, and who in the most recent year is, say, league average, would a typical projection system expect a better or worse year the next year? Would the downward adjustment of outperforming career averages be outweighed by the upward adjustment from the aging curves?

by KSinDC on Sep 17, 2011 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't

with Hosmer, he’s young enough (and his minor league performance at a young age is good enough) and the components are good enough that the aging adjustment “outweighs” the downward regression. That’s not the case for the outfielders.

At least from “Oliver’s perspective.”

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 17, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

While I’m not certain, I think you might misunderstanding the general nature of projection systems. As I understand them, they have three basic parts:

1. Weighted average of recent seasons of the player’s stats (for players with little major league data, this includes some translation of minor league stats)
2. Regressing this weighted average to the average of a larger population of players
3. Adjust based on aging curve

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 17, 2011 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think I'm getting stuck on the word regression

So when Matt says “likely regression will cancel out expected improvements from Hos, Moose, and maybe Giavotella” he’s talking about a decline in actual performance, not the regression function in the projection systems?

The regression function in the projection systems would actually boost the performance of Melky, Frenchy, and maybe Gordon (with respect to counting stats) relative to their weighted average performance, but the resulting numbers would represent a regression (a decline in performance) from this year?

by KSinDC on Sep 17, 2011 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

So when Matt says "likely regression will cancel out expected improvements from Hos, Moose, and maybe Giavotella" he’s talking about a decline in actual performance, not the regression function in the projection systems?

Yes, I’m pretty sure he’s saying that their performance is likely to regress towards their true talent level, which is lower than their performance this year.

The regression function in the projection systems would actually boost the performance of Melky, Frenchy, and maybe Gordon (with respect to counting stats) relative to their weighted average performance, but the resulting numbers would represent a regression (a decline in performance) from this year?

Yes. You’ll see that in every decent projection system. All of them (PECOTA, ZiPS, Oliver, etc. but not necessarily the abomination that is the “Bill James” projection system which is only related to BJ in that he sold his name for it) will project them to hit worse next year than they did this year.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 17, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW, prelim ZiPS OPS+ projections for next year:

Gordon: 120
Frenchy: 100
Melkington: 103

--
Dan Szymborski
Dan's Stuff is on: BTF, ESPN, Twitter

by D.Szymborski on Sep 17, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Thanks, Dan.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 17, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd definitely take the over on Melky.

This is more like his 40 percentile.

Gordon looks pretty fair.

Frenchy maybe a little low.

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Sep 17, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I prefer to think he has figured something out

Mr. Negative Nancy

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Sep 17, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I sure hope he has

And maybe he has. I just wouldn’t bet on it.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Sep 17, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very nice

I guess Matt’s point on Gordon was that he was likely to regress on PAs due to his injury history. Looks like Zips has him due for a pretty significant regression on rate stats as well.

by KSinDC on Sep 17, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Melkington

I really hope that’s a reference to this

Melkington, Melkington: 6-foot-8, weighs an F-ing ton.
On a horse made of crystal he patrols the land with a mason ring and Schnauzer in his perfect hand.

He’ll save the children, but not the British children.

by KSinDC on Sep 17, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

He once held an opponent's wife's hand

in a jar of acid

Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so.-Bertrand Russell

by Dr. van Strijcker on Sep 17, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

i remember this. kind of terrifying and funny at the same time.

"Gently thinking backwards on the psychedelic promises God made to me in the dark."

- David Berman

by Crooow on Sep 17, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are we talking purely in terms of WAR?

If so, I can see it. If we’re looking at Pythag, there are certainly indicators that the Royals are better than their W-L may suggest.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at Royalscentricity and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Sep 17, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's a different issue

I was talking about this season’s offense versus next season’s projected offense.

As for Pythag as a “predictor” of future teams success, I recently wrote about that.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 17, 2011 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah,

I’m hoping for breaking even with the respective regressions to the mean.

It really seems like there’s a lot of room for growth (in terms of production at least) on the Moustakas front. He’s been much, much better over the past month, and while he hasn’t walked a ton, he also has seemed to have pretty solid plate coverage and has minimized his K-totals. While we realistically have hope for a monster year from Hosmer, Moustakas’s improvement may be greater in terms of value than Hosmer’s.

Hopefully this can offset the likely major dip in production the Royals get from CF and RF in ’12.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at Royalscentricity and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Sep 17, 2011 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Between this and the shots to the groin and the pink underwear

I have a feeling there’s going to be a really uncomfortable chapter in one of the current Royals’ autobiography.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 16, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I saw a punch (by Frenchy), I saw a groan (by Hosmer).

This was all in super slow-mo, frame-by-frame, BTW. Then, Frenchy grabs at Hosmer’s chest and twists.

by kansasjohn on Sep 16, 2011 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

uh-oh.

I just text-ed all my friends in Sacramento to SUCK IT and now the Rivercats score 3 in the 8th.

Nick Swisher is handsome.

by ChrisCEIT on Sep 17, 2011 12:21 AM EDT reply actions  

"In play, run(s)"

In the top half. Sorry for the worries.

Nick Swisher is handsome.

by ChrisCEIT on Sep 17, 2011 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Again...

“In play, run(s)”

This PCL title is in the bag. Now to Albuqueerque.

Nick Swisher is handsome.

by ChrisCEIT on Sep 17, 2011 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

11-6.

took a deep breath. flight to that city confirmed.

Nick Swisher is handsome.

by ChrisCEIT on Sep 17, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

isn't that cheating somehow?

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Sep 17, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

How do the numbers for Getz

compare to how NL pitchers pitch to an opposing pitcher? Probably about the same.

by Black and Gold on Sep 17, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Melky is blowing away his previous highs in most categories.

Bottom of KCStar article which compares Melky’s increased production.

As for the doubles thing:

This is really a matter for another post, but the doubles thing is kinda stupid and kinda cool. I don’t think records that take more than three words to explain are iffy, and, well, the K is a great doubles part, which no one ever mentions.

The interesting thing is Melky has 7 more doubles on the road, Francouer has 1 more, and Gordon only has 3 fewer on the road. They’re not just hitting them in the K.

by BrRoyal on Sep 17, 2011 9:47 AM EDT reply actions  

true, but that's not how park effects work, right?

That still means that if the K were a “neutral” (here meaning an average league park) in terms of doubles, they would still have hjt fewer at home than they have, no matter how many more/less they hit on the road.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 17, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mos deF

But I think his point is that the spike in doubles is not only a home park mirage.

Question: how likely is it that melky and frenchy repeat this year’s performance next year? 5%? 10%? Is one more likely to repeat than the other? I’m still expecting both of them to collapse this season and they won’t.

by billexgordler on Sep 17, 2011 10:39 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Melky is more likely to repeat his performance with the bat.

He does not chase high fastballs like Frenchy, and his swing is much more compact.

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Sep 17, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Melky has improved on both sides of the plate

Frenchy can only hit righty, and he hammers lefties but is not especially effective against right-handers.

"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."

by Juancho on Sep 17, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

slow to answer because I'm on my mobile most of the day

I’ll be short for now because this thing is no good for long comments.

I’m not astute enough to give confidence intervals, but Oliver roughly projects what Dan S. Has above: Melky and Frenchy as about league average hitters. That puts them just about right between their previous performance and t

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 17, 2011 3:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

"this thing is no good for long comments"

darn

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Sep 17, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

slow to answer because I'm on my mobile most of the day

I’ll be short for now because this thing is no good for long comments.

I’m not astute enough to give confidence intervals, but Oliver roughly projects what Dan S. Has above: Melky and Frenchy as about league average hitters. That puts them just about right between their previous performance and this season’s.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 17, 2011 3:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

here's to hoping the bat whisperer can work some...

Magic with Giavotella. Perhaps in the off season.

At this point it looks like he wants to catch up to Getz in strikeouts in the few games. Not an encouraging sign.

Of course Getz pinch running for speedster Country Breakfast in a tie game in the 9th is marketing for Bad Idea jeans too….

Right Will?

The Royal Pork T....between inning snack of prized Royal Designated Hitters

by kd_in_kc on Sep 17, 2011 10:22 AM EDT via iPhone app reply actions  

Getz pinch running last night seemed pretty darn pointless.

Gordon, on 2b, carried the winning run. Either he scores, to end the game, or he doesn’t, and you go to extras. If Gordon scores, the game is over and it doesn’t matter where the runner on 1b was at the time. If he doesn’t, you’ve removed one of your best hitters and put in a guy who is supposedly on the team for his glove as the DH.

by kcemigre on Sep 17, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don't know

there was one out. gordon gets picked off, etc, and the speed of the only base runner becomes pretty important. it’s a precaution that makes sense to take.

by Professor Stephanie Willbanks on Sep 17, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Gordon could have tripped on his shoestrings too I guess.

Then he’d have been tagged out and Getz would have been the runner that mattered. Both equally likely in this situation.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Sep 17, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now that the minor league season is over

Do we bring up some guys from Omaha?

Royals 2012 AL Central Champions.....Jaguars 2011 AFC South champions

by tiquanunderwear on Sep 17, 2011 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

big debate is do you let them play Tuesday night for the whole enchilada

or bring some of them up now?

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Sep 17, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

KILA NOW!!!!

Honestly, who do you want to see brought up?

One of Vinny/Mendoza/SOS will eventually make an appearance in KC.

I suppose we could see C-Rob, Dyson or Cain… but what would Yost do with any of them at this point? (Yeah, ok, I know what speed do…)

How about Suppan for old time’s sake?

by kcemigre on Sep 17, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it is a position player, he will sit the pine

It is the way the brain trust rolls

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Sep 17, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

if I don't see Timmy Collins pitch again this season

that is ok with me. Enough, Ned!

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Sep 17, 2011 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Anyone else notice the photo caption?

Under the photo of the kid, it says, “Royals second baseman Johnny Giavotella.” Awesome. =)

My feeble attempts at Royals Blogging: http://leavinglastplace.wordpress.com

by HarryL on Sep 17, 2011 1:23 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm pretty sure this is the 1st game of the season that I saw or heard 0% of.

We went to the KC Improv Festival last nite, & got in the car juuuuuuuuust after the walk-off.

Going out to the K tonite. Wish me luck, cuz it does NOT look good.

by Diggity Dawg on Sep 17, 2011 2:19 PM EDT reply actions  

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