Mellinger: Royals need to get long-term deal done with Alex Gordon
A good guess for a contract that would be fair to both sides might be four years and $35 million.
Mellinger adds more here:
Four follow-up points on today's Alex Gordon column
I still believe this will get done, though I’m significantly less optimistic than I was two months ago.
4 months ago
RoyalsRetro
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Comments
I think Mellinger's suggested contract seems reasonable
I also think it makes sense that this is a difficult negotiation. Gordon is a player with big upside who has experienced one season of spectacular results. He’s also a player with some downside (a merely average player) who has also had some really poor results in some seasons. His future could be great or merely ok. It’s got to be hard for Gordon and his agent to determine how much upside potential (and the money that would come with it) they are willing to punt for the security of multiple years of guaranteed money.
This might not happen. I could see Gordon deciding that it makes the most sense to put up another year of hopefully good numbers and then be in a much stronger bargaining position for an extension, or just take another big salary bump in his Arb4 year and then hit free agency and get super rich.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 11:01 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Even an "average" player though should warrant decent money
Even in his terrible rookie year, he posted a 90 OPS+. His lifetime OPS is .777. Last year was a spike in performance, but at the very worst, he’s a league average third baseman, and guys like that can make $6-8 mill a year. I don’t think this is any kind of huge gamble.
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by RoyalsRetro on Jan 18, 2012 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
gordon hasnt been a 3b for awhile....
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by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
True, but I think his reasonable floor is a roughly league average LF as well.
+10 hitting
0 base running
-3 fielding
20 replacement
-7 positional
20 RAR
2 – 2.1 WAR (depending on run environment)
Although one could argue that his injury history means he’s a risk to miss significant playing time, thus lowering his reasonable floor.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry, I am forever stuck in 2007
Just like Dayton.
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by RoyalsRetro on Jan 18, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
He's Probably At
Least an average fielder at 3B today.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Jan 18, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Certainly an average player is worthy of a long-term contract extension
But my point is that there is a very wide gap between his reasonable floor and reasonable ceiling, which could make it very difficult for the team and the player to agree on how much he should be paid. Gordon and his agent may not like a very reasonable current offer from the Royals because they don’t want to turn their back on the huge upside which could be right around the corner.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Regardless of the difficulty assessing his value correctly
because of GMDM’s lack of MLB roster building acumen, it would be difficult to explain away the deal not getting done. It might be a stereotype of sorts, but I’m far more likely to blame Glass’s miserly ways, than credit FO analysis that reveals asymmetry between Gordo’s production going forward and the money he’s requesting. If the deal doesn’t get done, I’m inclined to see that as a red flag. It will feel like a loss. Another PR hit. A bigger gut punch than Yuni coming back. Almost up there with FanFestivus being cancelled.
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Jan 18, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
If the deal doesn’t get done, I’m inclined to see that as a red flag.
Personally, if a deal doesn’t get done, I’m not going to blame anyone. I’m pretty confident that the Royals are genuinely trying to extend Gordon, based both on what they’ve said and what they’ve done in the past. We don’t and probably won’t know what has been offered. I won’t assume that the Royals went cheap and didn’t offer anything fair. I would be more inclined to assume that Gordon preferred waiting another year to see if he could up his value, rather than taking a fair contract which could prove to well below his market value 10 months later.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
I always blame others for my problems
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Jan 18, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
That's Good Policy
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Jan 18, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
and it's your fault
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jan 18, 2012 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
I'd prefer a few mutual options
It just seems like the right thing to do.
I want to see him extended
But if he’s not willing to do something that’s team-friendly, I’d pass. We just can’t pay all of our players at the market rate ($4.5MM per WAR) and compete with the likes of the big market teams. He’s great and I hope he can be one of the cornerstones of the Royals in 2012-2020, but $35MM over 4 years (with a couple club options at $12MM) is pretty close to the top of my range.
That raises the question of what Gordon's market value is
I crunched some numbers for Gordon. Assuming a $5.25M/WAR for 2012, increasing at 7.5% per year, with Gordon getting 70% of his market value in 2012 (arb3) and 90% of that value in 2013 (arb 4) and a 15% discount each year in recognition of the player’s security and the team’s risk, here are the values I got for what Gordon is worth at various performance levels
2.0 WAR – 4 yrs/$45.4M
2.5 WAR – 4 yrs/$49.1M
3.0 WAR – 4 yrs/$52.8M
So even a 4/$45M contract would be pretty team friendly, IMO.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
whats gordons war been since hes been here? And how much has he been worth since hes joined the team?
by Kansas City Keith on Jan 18, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Per Fangraphs, he’s totaled 11.8 WAR in 5 seasons, averaging 2.36 WAR per season. That has been worth $52.2M in raw, unadjusted terms (not taking into account value for pre-arb and arb years).
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
The problem here, of course, is...
…that most of Gordon’s WAR was accumulated in one season: 2011. As noted above, it might be in the interest of Gordon and the team to wait until the end of this season before signing a long-term deal. – TL
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
But he has had 3 out of his 5 seasons being above average. And at least one of those below average seasons was due to an injury which has not recurred.
It would probably be in Gordon’s interest to wait a year before considering a long-term deal, but I really don’t think it is in the team’s interest. His price would very likely go up. And, if he’s just one year away from free agency, I think he’s less likely to sign a long-term deal at all. Why not just wait one more year and then hit the FA market and make huge money?
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Scott, in what way was his rookie year above average?
He was below average both in the field and at the plate, wasn’t he?
By UZR, he was well above average defensively, which contributed to 2.1 fWAR, a little above average.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure you're right, but I thought I remembered his UZR being in the -5 or -8 area.
But ok, I defer to your advanced knowledge in the area.
His UZR was negative the next year though
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I'm Pretty Sure
The hip problem was already bothering him in 2008.
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by philofthenorth on Jan 18, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
yeah we’re probobly not going to be able to reisign this guy. Over one year of spectacular numbers, what a shame.
by Kansas City Keith on Jan 18, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Because its 2003?
The US just invaded Iraq, Lance Armstrong just won his 5th Tour De France and California just elected Arnold as Governor.
…Too bad things never change.
Is $5.25MM/WAR really the current market rate?
I’m not saying it’s not, I just hadn’t seen that and it seems higher than I would expect.
Something like that
I think it was $5M in 2010. It was projected/estimated to be $5.5M in 2011. I’m not sure if it got there. So I’m just conservatively guesstimating $5.25M for 2012, but I think the reality is probably going to be $5.5-5.75M.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Don't forget that 2 of those years are arb years where the Royals could go year-to-year at below-market rates
That opportunity is worth a lot, and forfeiting those arb years should bring the total cost of the contract down quite a bit.
Yes
At 70% for 2012 & 90% for 2013.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 1:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hmmm
I see now that you said you were doing that in the comment, but the numbers didn’t look right to me given that adjustment.
When I ran the numbers myself just now, I got:
2.0 WAR — $36M
2.5 WAR — $45M
3.0 WAR — $54M
I tried to plug in exactly the same numbers you described. I wonder what we did differently.
Did you increase the value of WAR/year by 7.5% each year?
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty sure something went wrong with your numbers
The 3 WAR value should be 1.5 times the 2 WAR value since the value output is exactly 1.5 times as much.
You're right
I copy-and-pasted the values in some cells wrong. Whoops!
2 WAR = $36.3M
2.5 WAR = $45.4M
3 WAR = 54.4M
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
I'm glad I don't do this for a living
They’d probably expect my numbers to be correct.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
it would probably depend on whether your analysis supported
what they wanted or not!
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
Or Work For
The government.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Jan 18, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
as Nighthawk and PotN said, there's a way out:
I always blame others for my problems – That’s good policy.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jan 18, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say Rany was right on target with this paragraph from 2 days ago
I said during the season that Gordon probably was worth somewhere between $38 and $42 million for a four-year deal, and those numbers still fit. Maybe on the high side if there’s an option year, maybe on the low side if Gordon wants a no-trade clause, but those are details best left for the two sides to negotiate.
Yes, I think those numbers make sense
I would be very comfortable with 4/45, even if there were no option year.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Lifetime contract
with each year a mutual option. It’s the only way to go.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
How do we reconcile $5.5M per WAR, 70% for this arb year, and Gordon's arb request of $5.45M?
One of those numbers has to be seriously wrong, no?
Also, 7.5% inflation seems extremely aggressive to me.
How do we reconcile $5.5M per WAR, 70% for this arb year, and Gordon’s arb request of $5.45M?
I think a lot of that has to do with his 2010 season, which is taken into account in arbitration and was pretty bad.
Also, 7.5% inflation seems extremely aggressive to me.
I thought I was being conservative. In such exercises, I often see 10% used. We’re not talking about the normal inflation rate nationwide. We’re talking about MLB salary inflation. What do you think it has been in recent years? Or over the last 10, 15 or 20 years?
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
What's special about the 2010 season?
Arbitration takes into account his career and especially his last season. 2010 is the next closest season, so I guess it has more weight than the ones before, but Gordon’s folks ought to be emphasizing the 2011 season, which ought to boost the number significantly.
What sort of calculation would give us a $5.45M number as the high end of the range? Even a simple average of 2010 and 2011 gives us a number way above that, if we assume $5.5M and 70%.
And I defer to you on the inflation rate. My gut response was that it seemed high, but taking 2.5 percentage points off the old inflation rate seems plenty to adjust for the lower inflation overall.
What is special about the 2010 season is that people who have been involved in the arbitration process frequently say that as a matter of practice the last two seasons are considered heavily in arbitration hearings.
Also, I was looking at what I think is a good measure of real value (WAR). In arbitration, they won’t be looking at anything like that. They’ll be looking at batting average, HR, RBI, SB, that sort of thing.
I’m not saying the 70% number is carved in stone. I used it as a rough estimate.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
My inclination would be to use 60%/80% for his last two years
But I freely acknowledge that my numbers would be way too high too.
My main point is that there’s a serious problem with a process that assumes fair value for him next year is 60% higher than he’s asking for (and almost 100% higher than the Royals, who have a great track record of winning arb hearings, are offering).
I don’t know if Gordon’s WAR numbers are unusually out of sync with his arb-important stats or what, but the assumptions are not matching up to the observed data, and I don’t really know how to resolve it. I was kind of hoping that somebody else did. It makes me think that $45/4 is way too high though.
I don’t know if Gordon’s WAR numbers are unusually out of sync with his arb-important stats or what
They are, I think.
It makes me think that $45/4 is way too high though.
Perhaps. But take the arb years out of the equation for a moment. How much do you think he’d get on the FA market right now if he were a FA?
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
If that's true, then 4/45 would be a decent deal for the Royals, but not ultra-team-friendly
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
what do you think he'd get?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think he'd get quite that much right now, because teams aren't sure what they have in him
I think one great year wouldn’t turn into 4/56. That’s just my guess. How much less than that? I don’t know. Maybe 3/33? Plus performance bonuses? Vesting option for a fourth year? Just spitballing.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
yeah...i dunno....
he was a 7 win player last year…thats huge. when he’s been healthy, he’s been a decent player before that. i think another 5+ win, healthy season and he’s looking at $100 million or so. im trying to think of someone comparable to gordon when they hit FA but am struggling
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by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
best i can think of is jd drew
had a huge year in 2004 after being a top prospect who couldn’t stay healthy, was inconsistent. he got a 5/55 deal.
by BeauJackson on Jan 19, 2012 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
holy shit...i never knew drew put up a 9 win season
looking at that guy’s career…i actually feel sorta bad for him with how he’s talked about and was treated in boston
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by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
he has been pretty much universally hated since spurning the phillies
was a good player, but people never seemed to forgive him for that. not exactly the most charismatic guy either, which probably didn’t help him.
by BeauJackson on Jan 19, 2012 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
seems like he's exactly what people are asking for....
when they bitch about their athletes being obnoxious and cocky. he is by all accounts just a quiet, respectable guy who does his job and does it well without drawing attention to himself but then he’s one of the most hated guys in sports…very strange
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by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 12:49 AM EST up reply actions
He as Not
Well liked when he played in Kenai. He can be pretty self-righteous.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Jan 19, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Given Gordon's injury history, I don't think anybody pays full value for 4 years
The one great year was great, but if he can’t play, he can’t produce. The Mauer and Morneau contracts ought to be a good reminder of that embedded risk in any long term contract.
Getting two of the years at a discount and getting to buy out FA years in the center of our playoff window makes 4 years a much better deal for the Royals.
that injury history is why i only put his deal at 4 years instead of the 6 or 7
he’d have gotten otherwise
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by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
without the injuries....
he’d be following up 3 or 4 average to slightly above average seasons…so, yeah
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by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not really following you
I was assuming you’d just remove the injury seasons. You’re keeping them, but assuming he’d been a 2-2.5 WAR player in those seasons?
4 years of 2-2.5 WAR and 1 year of 6 WAR would get 6-7 years at 14M (plus inflation)?
i think so
i could be way off base though
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by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
that wouldn't be an unreasonable assumption
Gordon was a 3.1 WAR in 2008 before the thumb injury in ’09. Given the last year was as 5.1 (B-R)it was, those years, minus injuries and position switches, look to me more like 3-4 WAR, so 2-2.5 would be conservative, imo.
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by setupunchtag on Jan 19, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not questioning whether he would have done in those years
I’m questioning whether, if he had in fact been healthy and produced 2-2.5 WAR in those two years, he would have gotten $14M a year for 6 to 7 years. His great year of 2011 would look like a lot more of a Frenchy-style outlier if it came after 4 seasons of 2-2.5 WAR than two years of 2-2.5 and 2 years of injuries.
I would think somewhere between those two contracts
A lot of teams, just like a lot of us, were expecting his breakout season at some point due to his draft and prospect status. Based on that and his still being young, you’d think most teams wouldn’t consider last year a fluke.
by BeauJackson on Jan 19, 2012 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
That has me a bit flummoxed
I tend to think that the Royals are pretty good at the arbitration game and arb salaries are based on comparable market salaries, and the research on 40/60/80 seems pretty compelling, so I feel like the Royals believe he’d be getting about $8M a year on the open market.
But that seems too low.
So you’re thinking that 4-year arb players get 40/60/80/100?
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
I'm thinking 4-year arb players get 40/40/60/80
Or maybe 35/45/65/85
Of course, if we use the 30/50/70/90 method, that makes the arbitration numbers even harder to understand.
FWIW, it also seems like the differences among the 3 formulations aren’t huge. Not that this makes it irrelevant, but it doesn’t wildly affect an estimation of Gordon’s dollar value. Not that any of them are necessarily right though.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
Right, it only really makes a big difference in reverse engineering
If we start from Gordon’s arb request, we get a free market value for him between $9.0M (assuming 40/40/60/80) and $7.7M (assuming 30/50/70/90).
Also FWIW, MLB Trade Rumors came up with a new way to project arbitration salaries. They looked at the stats that have historically best correlated with arbitration awards and they use those stats, coupled with service time comps to project arbitration awards. That method projected $4.4M for Gordon.
This isn’t the only thing going on here, but I don’t think WAR does a good job of guesstimating arbitration salaries because the arb process uses very different stats to assess player value.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Then that would imply the 40/60/80 doesn't work
or WAR doesn’t work for FA salaries.
Some link in the chain has to be broken
Maybe FA salaries are determined in a different way from arb salaries.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
Right, that could be
But the 40/60/80 is supposed to be a way of determining arb salaries from FA salaries. If they’re determined in significantly different ways (as seems to be the case, at least with Gordon), we wouldn’t expect a stable relationship between them.
I don’t know that there is a stable relationship between them. I think it is a rough estimate, or rule of thumb.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
I guess I'm wondering how precise a rule it is
I should go play with that MLBTR tool, but it concerns me that the relationship between Gordon’s arb and his free market value looks likely to be 30% – 45% in a year we’d expect 60% (in my understanding) to 70% (in your understanding). That’s a pretty gigantic difference.
Even if 40-60-80 is the central tendency, if the variations are that big, it’s not much use in projecting individual players.
But maybe Gordon is an extreme outlier.
It may not be of much use for figuring arbitration values. I think it is a very imprecise rule. Just a rule of thumb, just a rough estimate. Don’t know if it is even the best rough estimate.
But I do think that for a player like Gordon, his WAR-based value is going to be very different from his old school, traditional stats value. Therefore his FA value (which I think is aligned more closely with WAR) is going to be significantly different from his value for arbitration purposes.
He gets a great deal of his value from Walks, singles, doubles and defense (mostly arm). So an arbitrator would like his batting average from 2011, but not be particularly impressed with his HR, RBI or SB.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
If I were going based on WAR, I'd have him as a 3-4 WAR player going forward
Even cutting to the bottom end of that ranger to adjust for injury risk, that’s still $16M a year.
But that strikes me as too high, and it worries me that it’s so much higher than even Alex’s agent is asking for.
And on using the last two years, I guess we just read different articles
The work I’ve seen overwhelmingly focuses on the last year and then puts it in the context of the career, but I can’t recall anything that put special emphasis on the year before last.
Focusing primarily on the most recent year doesn’t jibe well with a $5.45M number.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
Nothing jibes well with a $5.45M number
I have no idea what to make of it.
Here's one of the articles I was thinking of
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/best_super_2_in_arbitration_ever/#6
The platform year is the year immediately before the contract is signed for the comparitor regardless of how far back it was signed.
Except in unusual circumstances, the platform year will be the same seniority as the player in arbitration: a super two compares himself (and the team compares him to) other super twos, players with 3 years experience compare to others who were at three seasons before signing their platform contract, etc.
This doesn’t exactly say that only the most recent year is relevant, but it gives a sense of what Gordon’s team’s case will be: the contracts that players with 4 years experience signed after years like the one he just had.
Yes, that would be Gordon's case
But I don’t think there’s good reason to believe Gordon’s case will prevail. Putting the WAR-based estimate of his arb value aside, I think the best indicators show that his great 2011 season would not be the argument that carries the day. First, there’s MLBTR’s arb project system which estimated $4.4M. Then there’s the Royals, who have had an extremely good record with arbitration settlements, which pegs him at $4.15M. It appears to me that at least one other recent year would be considered for them to come up with these numbers (both of which are based on precedent).
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
If I'm understanding Matt Swartz's writing, the model is also based off of the one year
For example:
Take Pablo Sandoval as another example. He has a career .307 batting average coming into his first year of arbitration, and has averaged over 20 HR per season. Our model projects him for just $3.2MM due to his 466 PA this season. Give him the same career rates of AVG, HR, RBI, and SB but with 650 PA in 2011, and he would get about $4.7MM.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/10/hitters-arbitration-salaries.html
It seems that the link between arb and FA salaries may be breaking down
Matt Swartz:
In contrast to the free agent market, which now incorporates a modern understanding of baseball, arbitration relies on simple statistics such as pitcher wins and runs batted in. When advanced statistics became available, teams incorporated these into their free agent bids, and stopped paying much attention to old-school statistics. Meanwhile, arbitration panels determine a player’s salary based on “comparables,” players with similar basic statistics and service time.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/10/mlb-trade-rumors-arbitration-projections.html
As this occurs, the 40-60-80 rule will become less useful in estimating salaries for arb-eligible players. In Gordon’s case, it seems we might want to cut somewhere around $5M off his value in his arb years
A 45M dollar contract to a 2 WAR player would be team friendly?
I cant agree with that. I would flip out if Moore was paying $11.25M a year to a 2 WAR player. The Royals can’t afford to swing and miss on their big contracts.
My numbers were regrettably off
2 WAR should be about $36M. And I think that would be a good deal for the Royals. WAR don’t come cheap. And average players aren’t exactly sitting on the corner waiting to be picked up for cheap.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know, I'd have no interest in giving a 2 WAR player $36M over four years.
I could see some teams doing that contract and not feeling the effects, but a contract like that could cripple the Royals. I’m fine with extending Gordon, I just hope he doesn’t revert back to being a near two WAR player.
It would cripple the Royals to get an average player for a little less money than an average FA would cost?
I don’t understand that.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
for the royals to have sustained success...they'll have to beat the league average in paying for WAR...
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by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
And this does...by a little...because it includes two cost controlled years
And, as this is probably close to Gordon’s floor, that would make it a particularly good deal for the Royals. If the worst that could reasonably happen is that the contract ends up being a little better than a FA market rate deal, then that’s a damned good contract.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't see how that would be a good contract
if that is what ended up happening. Maybe for one year it wouldn’t hurt, but four years of that kind of production for that cost would be terrible.
How much do you think a league average player is worth?
Also, I agree that the Royals should be spending market rate on players as little as possible. But a market rate contract for a player is certainly not “crippling.” It’s less value for the money than is best for a small market team like the Royals.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
I guess crippling was a bit much
I just don’t think the Royals can afford to ever invest in a league average player if they are paying the market rate. But, if you go by that idea, you can never invest in any of the developed players because the future hasn’t happened yet. This is all predicated on thinking about Gordon’s floor instead of his ceiling, so I seem to be getting worked up about a worst case scenario.
I agree with you
I don’t think small market teams like the Royals will be competitive if they only get market-value WAR from their free agents.
And That Is
Not what you’re hoping for. You never hop a player plays at the floor level, and Gordon likely will not.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Jan 18, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
yeah...if thats the floor..
and the ceiling is a 4.5 or 5 win player…then yeah, great deal.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
9M a year to a average player doesn't seem like a market the Royals should delve into.
hopefully Gordon isn’t an average player in the future.
by BeauJackson on Jan 18, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Who would you pay market rate to then?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jan 18, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much nobody unless we have a huge black hole in our line-up or a surplus of money
I’m still trying to do the analysis (future Fanpost spoiler alert!) but I just don’t think the Royals can be successful (read: make the playoffs) if we have a $70MM payroll and we sign a lot of guys to $4.5 per WAR contract. That just put too much burden on the farm system where we’d have to produce 6-10 quality prospects every 3 or 4 years.
With Soria, Butler, Frenchy and Chen already signed to team-friendly, but not really that friendly contracts, and with Moose, Hosmer, Salvador, and Duffy as strong contenders for long-term extensions, I don’t think we should over-commit to one player, like Alex, even if he is the best player on the team.
I agree to an extent
But you should be able to structure Gordon’s deal so that he isn’t paid “market rate” til after Frenchy and Chen are gone.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
When will they be gone?
I really don’t know…
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 1:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
thats the same point that the young guys will start getting expensive
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Hopefully!!!
If we have to start paying those guys over $5MM per year, things will have gone pretty great and we’ll have a great line-up that is still making 50% or 70% of what they deserve. If worse comes to worse and we can’t afford all our young stars, we could always trade a couple of them since the return on cost-controlled stars in their 20s is pretty huge. In other words, that would be a fantastic problem to have.
And they've at least hinted
That payroll can go up as the team is successful.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Could probably do it with a big bonus this year too
since we’ll probably have more payroll flexibility this year than next – and so Alex gets his money now, not 4 years from now. Something like:
$6M bonus- $5M- $5M- $10M- $10M- ($12M team option)- ($12M team option)- {$12M mutual option!!!}
I tend to agree
However, Mr. Glass indicated that if that the Yankees will be at 200 million that will always be 2 or 3 times more than KC. That would seem to indicate a range of approximately 66-100 million. Basically, you’re analysis is assuming the floor of salary.
Am I reading too much into Glass’s comments? Maybe, but I do believe the Royals can and will spend more than 70million from time to time. Regularly? Not sure.
there's no reason to believe he wont spend at least 70....
he’s done it a couple times in the recent past with teams that werent ready to win and werent drawing all that well
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
There are plenty of reasons to believe he won't spend over 70,
like the fact that Dayton has said that 70 (or maybe it was 75) is the limit. Also, the Royal’s past payrolls have consistently been below 70.
There are also plenty of reasons to believe he will spend over 70 if he needs to, like the fact that we did go over 70 in 2008, i think, and the example of other teams like the Brewers who will go beyond their means for a couple of years to go for a World Series.
have they spent 70 since the stadium was renovated?
I would think that would add some revenue. Skybox’s/ Luxury suites. Rivals bar made over a mil profit alone (Petro mentioned on his show)
there's one outlier there....
and that’s 2011 when 25 million or so unexpectedly came off the books….and those were with last place type teams
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Rivals bar made over a mil profit alone (Petro mentioned on his show)
Did Petro say where he got his numbers? Add up the profit from Rivals, the other outfield concessions, and parking revenue, and there are your reasons why Glass would never have supported a downtown stadium.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Do the Royals get the profits from Rivals?
I have no idea, but I would have assumed that fully fledged bars and restaurants in stadiums are contracted out or flat out leased space where the team or stadium gets little or no profit participation.
And do the Royals get all of the profits from concessions? Don’t most of those profits go to the contractor, Aramark?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
This
Glass is getting his, however the business terms are structured. The bottom line is that he knows he would not be enjoying the same sort of revenue if Royals fans had legitimate dining/drinking options within walking distance of the stadium.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
we do...its called dollar beers and 75 cent brats in the parking lot
rather than $4.50 beers and $10 burgers
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Not everyone has the ability to
knock off work 1-2 hours early, load up a grill and accessories, hit the grocery store for food and ice, and drive around picking up 3 or more other people (or getting the kids packed up) to go to a random Tuesday night game. It’s just not feasible for a lot of people.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
If they (we [me]) don't have to drive...
Maybe they (we [me]) end up drinking a LOT more.
Or I (they) could just stagger down to the Quaff.
just get like 8 people together...its like a buck a person to park....
one person has to be sober enough to drive…everyone wins
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
At my age/position/station in life
it would be a minor miracle to gather 8 friends together to all go to a particular game. Between work, kids, logistics of living in different areas of the metro, etc….forget it unless it was a weekend game planned out at least a month in advance. Also, I don’t know anyone who drives a single vehicle that could transport 8 adults comfortably.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Often times, it's going to be one family in the car
Maybe 4 people. And those kids really aren’t going to be kicking in much money.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
"Well, son, if you want to go to a Royals game...
then I’m going to need a $2.50 parking deposit from your allowance this week. And if you’re planning on eating once we get in there, then we need to start talking about a concessions savings account. It’s about time you started learning the economics of professional baseball."
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
If (when) they do finally build a downtown stadium,
Maybe they will throw in a free subway system or light rail. Seems like its about time KC grew up and got something like that.
certainly it won’t be free. A good idea though.
Most of the city just doesn't have the population density to support
a true light rail system. The streetcar line proposed for the River Market to Crown Center is a good start, and it might eventually make it as far south as the Plaza. But it will be another 25-50 years before the metro can realistically start talking about a sustainable city-wide train system.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
I'm no city planner, but
Portland and Phoenix both have dispersed suburban populations and light-rails.
I don’t think either one is really “city-wide” though – I think both focus on a downtown loop, a couple big suburbs, and the airport.
Exactly
I think both focus on a downtown loop, a couple big suburbs, and the airport.
Both cities’ airports are basically right in the middle of the cities. KCI is more than 20 miles away from downtown and across a river. You would need an “express” train that would be a completely different type (and probably different type of track) than the downtown streetcar system. Same for the suburban stops. They would just be “commuter” trains, which would need to be bigger/longer, and faster than the urban streetcars. And when you can still just get in your car and be downtown in about 30 minutes during rush hour from the interior suburbs (i.e. in and around the 435 loop), then who is going to be riding the suburban routes?
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
Charlotte has a light rail system as well
About the same size as the KC metro. Their light rail focuses on getting people near the Uptown area to Uptown so traffic in that area doesn’t become congested. The airport in Charlotte is right near downtown, but the light rail doesn’t go there. The light rail is basically just a line that runs adjacent to two of the main boulevards in Charlotte, Trade and South.
I disagree
a light rail system right now with extensions to:
KCI Airport
Barry Rd/Zona Rosa (a stop on Airport run)
Truman Sports Complex
Kansas Speedway/ Shopping district
Plaza/Brookside/Waldo
Overland Park/Metcalf/other
…would be sustainable a lot sooner than 25-50 years.
After the initial expense, it would be much more efficient than the current Metro Transit System.
The Kansas City Council leaders are a bunch of old fogeys. Much too passive. They hated the Power and Light idea. Thriving. They hated the Sprint Center. Thriving without a primary tennant. They hated the property tax abatements handed out to downtown condominium complexes. All those are sold out….Grrrrrrrrrr
The downtown condo market is dead and buried
Believe me, I know from personal experience.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
More so than the real estate market
in general nationally?
Maybe its isolated, but I bought a small condo at, ‘The View’ in ’06 and flipped it for a tidy little profit after the crash 2 yrs later. It still had a full 22 yrs left property tax free
(less than 60 bucks a year) when I sold it. That helped.
I haven’t been living in KC for the last 2 yrs so maybe that market has nose dived.
You pretty much timed it perfectly then
This article was two years ago, but things haven’t improved:
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2009/11/02/story2.html?page=all
My building is probably 50-60% renters now because almost all the original owners can’t unload their units on the market. So, many of us have become unintentional landlords instead.
I heard that the HOA was horribly underfunded at The View and therefore they had to raise dues dramatically to cover maintenance and anticipated improvements to the common areas. I was on my HOA board, and we had to threaten our building’s developer with a lawsuit because it hadn’t been paying any dues into the association for the units it had held since the condo declaration was filed. At least my building’s HOA is financial healthy and very well-managed.
Tax abatements are great as long as you’re not the one holding the unit when the abatement is lifted. It’s kind of like a game of hot potato—you want to sell it before the taxes become an issue because if a potential buyer knows their property taxes are going to suddenly go from $0 to $2000 one year, that obviously will affect the price they’re willing to pay for the unit.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
Dues were at I think, 33 cents a sq ft
when I left….We also had a law suit with the ownership. Ours was over the parking garage which needed 75 thou in repairs.
Also, the original Property Mgr (Matt Gietzen) stole 20 grand from the HOA over the course of 4 yrs, and I think he ended up getting away with it. (he was being pursued on charges when I left)
If your out there Matt, f*ck you buddy.
by Bronzillo on Jan 18, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Eh, if he's jacking money it was very appropriate.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Jan 19, 2012 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As much as I would love to have decent public transportation in KC
I think the fact that the express bus they ran out to the Stadium for game days was canceled because it was losing money is a damning data point in the idea that KC is ready to support a thriving public transit system.
It’s not just that the population isn’t dense, it’s also that everything is so decentralized. It’s not like you’re just getting people from a bunch of places into a downtown, there are a dozen downtowns/work-centers and by the time everything has been criss-crossed to get from one center to the other, it’s an hour and half when you could have driven there in 30 minutes.
And Overland Park and Johnson County are definitely built for cars. Of the several locations in Overland Park I’ve worked, none of them were remotely friendly to pedestrians. You can’t have viable public transportation unless you make a safe place for pedestrians, since most people who take public transportation don’t walk out their front doors, get on the shuttle, ride, get off the shuttle and take two steps into their job. It needs to be attractive to get people out of the autonomy they get with their cars and if they can’t cross the street or even walk down it in a reasonably safe way, there is no way they’re gonna take it if they can afford to not take it.
As I said, I would love for KC-area to have a decent public transportation system, but it will involve realistically addressing the obstacles, not the least of which will be reaching across city & state lines to coordinate it, something the various cities involved have never excelled at.
good points
I thought about OP and they would have to set up ‘Park and Ride’ type scenarios initially.
I still think ‘If you build it, they will come’
You start out like Sweep_the_Leg mentioned, with a base commuter line from the River Market to Crown Center or the Plaza and over the next 20 years, you expand it one segment at a time.
Definitely agree that this is the place to start.
I think a little bit of “training” needs to happen because I think when people are exposed to public transportation that actually is convenient, safe and affordable, they will love it. And by safe, I don’t necessarily mean on the actual vehicle (although certainly that), but in the getting between the transport and your destination.
You have a chicken/egg problem here:
The whole city, really, is built for cars.
It didn’t have to be that way, and it doesn’t always have to be that way. But, as long as the status quo—in and of itself—is used as a reason for maintaining the status quo, you close the door on improving anything at all.
Maintaining roads and making room for all of the parking necessitated by the current transportation infrastructure is incredibly expensive. I, personally, believe that some of that expense should be diverted toward alternatives, so we don’t have to be stuck in the chicken/egg cycle forever.
by kcemigre on Jan 18, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well put
After living in Midtown and Downtown for most of the last 20 years (I’m 41) and having sold my car several years ago after gas prices skyrocketed and I wasn’t really using it, I have come to the conclusion that KC is metropolitan enough to support a rail system of some kind (at least from the River Market to the Plaza to start).
If anyone is familiar with the ‘Walkscore’ rating, KC’s is 86 and that is pretty damn good.
http://www.walkscore.com/score/Kansas-City-Mo
Exactly right
The area that used to have a trolley line (River Market to Waldo) is obviously dense enough to support the modern equivalent (light rail).
But the larger problem is exactly the chicken-and-egg problem kcemigre describes here. The part of DC I live in built subways along the route of the trolley line that closed 20 years before, but much of the rest of the area, especially Bethesda and Arlington, is just as dense now even though it was typical post-war suburbs when the Metro was built.
If you build it (and zone correctly and work with developers), they will come.
The entire country is built for cars, really
Everything’s so darn spread out. KC in particular is guilty of this. Good roads take up space, which ends up forcing things to be spread out.
I agree that it is possible that public transportation can be done, and should be done. My experiences in England over the past months have influenced my view on the subject.
The Power and Light is sustainable because the taxpayers are footing the bill. The Sprint Center is sustainable, even though they HAVE NOT followed thru on the promise of a permanent tenant, because of the tax payers footing the bill. The Stadiums have been improved, and the Glass and Hunt families getting richer, at taxpayer expense.
I am all for a light rail system, but how long can the “working man” foot the bill in the form of tax increases that primarily benefit the corporate swine that obviously lurk around every corner (including at City Hall and at the Jackson County Courthouse).
But hey, Jackson County Executive Mike Sanders is a cool guy . He must also have a lot of free time, since he’s on Kietzman once a month.
by Rufus R. Jones on Jan 19, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I am all for a light rail system, but how long can the "working man" foot the bill…
Mass transit systems (including the system composed of cars, roads and parking lots) do not pay for themselves. The “working man” is already footing that bill.
A more efficient allocation of resources would make that bill smaller, not bigger. It seems to me that allocating some portion of the money already being spent on expensive transportation infrastructure to alternatives like light rail, which has the potential to be significantly more efficient is a good idea.
I'd question this blanket statement.
Quite a bit different when the landscape is as concentrated as it is in Europe to the United States.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Public transportation works in Barcelona
But it’s the most densely populated city in Europe, and even the way things are, the subway misses a lot of the city (the busses cover that, but they’re less comfortable and slower).
The other thing Barcelona has is a climate suitable to motorbikes and bicycles year-round. Barcelona is second in Europe after Rome in number of motorbikes. You just have to be 16 years old—you don’t even need a license—to ride a motorbike with a max 49cc engine.
KC is just not a mass-transit city. Everything’s too far apart. A light-rail line from Waldo to the City Market and then out to the airport might make sense, if you had park-and-ride.
"That fucking fucker of a general swears too fucking much." --Unnamed soldier about Gen. George Patton, 1943
Public transportation works well in a lot of cities
NYC has a good subway and bus system. Many smaller cities have good bus and/or light rail systems. You just have to implement the right system for your city and then run it well.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Jan 20, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
Scott, you're begging the question
You’re assuming there’s a right public transport plan for your city. In KC there might not be one. It’s a car city.
"That fucking fucker of a general swears too fucking much." --Unnamed soldier about Gen. George Patton, 1943
This statement isn't accurate
The Sprint Center is sustainable, even though they HAVE NOT followed thru on the promise of a permanent tenant, because of the tax payers footing the bill.
It is my recollection that a Budget Rent-a-car tax financed the Sprint Center, and a guarantee by AEG to cover unprofitability or default was in place to get the bill passed.
CERTAINLY no tax payer has paid a dime to sustain the Sprint Center since it was built.
On the contrary, it is profitable without a main tenant, contributing millions in tax revenue and hundreds of jobs
We don't. But I think we need to realistically recognize what the obstacles are
in order to address those obstacles. I’m definitely not arguing that we shouldn’t do it. I’m saying I think these are among the obstacles that need to be realistically addressed for this to get off the ground.
do you think people drink less at busch stadium b/c its downtown?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
I'll bet their revenue from parking doesn't come close to the Royals.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
dont they own a couple of garages right around there?
and assuming im correct, they’re about $20 a pop…i bet they dont do much worse in parking.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
The Cardinals owners bought the team in 1995
For $150 million, but that included some parking garages and other real estate. They sold off the other assets for about $100 million, making their net investment just over half of what Glass paid for the Royals. So no on the parking, but the Cardinals are worth much more than $50 million now.
My God,
that sounds like one of the best deals in the history of sports.
I would guess they are worth at least 600M now?
no wonder AB got taken over by a bunch of euro assholes...
stupid business decisions like that
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
The A-B takeover
Definitely accelerated my interest in craft beer.
And the folks now running such an iconic brand are such geniuses that can’t even convince more people to drink Budweiser than Coors Light. What a shame.
i read dethroning the king....
very interesting book about the takeover of AB
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
The liquor store in the building next door to me
is run by a crazy old guy who has crazy ideas about what to stock and how often to restock. I’ve gotten skunked beer there a couple times that turned out to be more than 6 months old. So, I’m not claiming this is typical.
When I was in there yesterday, the Miller Lite had “born-on date” (or whatever they call it) of mid-December. The Budweiser was from Septemeber 2nd. I guess nobody buys Bud any more.
bud JUST got surpassed as the #2 beer by coors light...
bud light is still lapping every other beer…who knows what the hell is going on at that liquor store. it could simply be a matter of lazy delivery guys who dont rotate the beer when they deliver it
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
So Coors Light sells more than Miller Lite?
That surprises me considering how much more valuable Miller Brewing was than Coors when they were both acquired 6-7 years ago.
Also, do they even sell regular Coors any more? I see MGD and High Life alongside Miller Lite at the stores, but I don’t know when is the last time I saw one of those gold Coors labels.
coors is around....
and yeah…coors light sells more than miller lite
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
518mil according to Forbes last year
Which is ten times what they actually paid for the team itself. But they leveraged much of that appreciation when they borrowed over 300mil to build the new Busch Stadium. They did get some tax incentives, but Glass did much better in getting a stadium upgrade with only a small fraction of the cost out of his pocket (25mil out of 250mil total). Forbes estimated the Royals were worth 351mil last year BTW.
The Cardinals owners also promised to develop commercial, retail and residential properties around the stadium for an additional 300mil, but the development never materialized.
No, I think most people are going to end up drinking far less in the stadium
if they have multiple bars within walking distance of the stadium for pre- and post-game activities. Most of which are probably offering drink/food specials of some sort on game night. And all of whose revenue would not be going into the Royals’ coffers.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Have you seen the parking lot at the K?
Its littered in beer cans.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
i generally give mine to the homeless guy who's collecting them and selling them to recycling places...
no littering and no work on my part…great deal
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Cans for which Glass sees no revenue, either
My primary point above is that, many fans do not have billybeingbilly’s active social life and/or the time to plan a full tailgate before a random weeknight game. For those fans, having the option to park and then get something to eat/drink outside the game (either before or after), would be very appealing. Rivals, for example, would probably see its revenue cut in half (if not worse).
And even if the stadium were downtown, I guarantee you’d still have a ton of “tailgaters” drinking beers out of their trunks in the parking garages.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jan 18, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
If you want to drink before the game...
…you can do that in the parking lot without devoting an entire day to planing a tailgate. I do it all the time. Stop at a liquor store on your way to the ballpark and suck one (or three) down before you go inside. Ditto eating… heck run by LC’s and get some grub on the way.
If you want to drink (or eat) after the game… tough luck. Rivals is closed and so are the concession stands.
I really don’t see how having bars and restaurants near the ballpark would cut into anyone’s profits.
the only time i'd like it is when it rains or is north of 100 degrees
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
i'll either still be doing the same thing...
or i’ll be rolling up at game time to watch a game semi-sober
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
if by consistently below 70....
you mean once out of the last 3 years….
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
You're a snarky little summamabitch
But your comments crack me up when I agree with them
billybeingbilly being billybeingbilly
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Jan 18, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I really think payroll will follow revenues
Before 2012 (when payroll unexpectedly dropped largely due to Greinke’s trade and Meche’s retirement), the Royals consistently spent more than 90% of revenues on the team. I think that will continue. And as the team gets better, attendance will increase. And the next TV/radio deals should be better. With greater revenues should come larger payrolls. I really don’t think that will be capped at $70 or even $75M.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
God I hope not
I think the team will get a ton of fan support if they’re actually good. KC loves sports and they’ve had no hometown team that was worth a damn for going on 20 years unless you want to count those couple years where the Chiefs sold their defense to the devil in exchange for an offense that could carry them as far as an early playoff exit.
If the Royals manage to become good, the city will freak out.
If the Royals manage to become good, the city will freak out.
i cant fucking wait…ive been a part of too many cardinals celebrations….and it’ll be so much better with non spoiled fans like us. i might as well just start saving money for my bail now.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Its good timing too
I think people are at their boiling point with the Chiefs lack of success, and with Mizzou switching conference, I think that may mute the college sports fervor in this town.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Now Mizzou is finally in a real conference.
No more “Big Texas” conference. GO TIGERS!!
by royal_in_cincinnati on Jan 18, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Can't tell if you're serious or using sarcasm.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
He’s being serious. He’s being a Mizzou fan.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
god i cant wait until alabama beats them by 50
in football and kentucky shows them that KU and their talent is child’s play
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 18, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't let facts get in the way here.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Huggie Bears Bail Bonds
216 East 11th Ave, KC, Mo (816) 436 0600
by Bronzillo on Jan 18, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And with regard to attendance
I think it should be easier now to have high attendance at Kauffman Stadium than it used to be, based on population alone. Back in 1989, the Royals averaged over 30k in attendance at Royals stadium. Back then, the population of the KC metro area was about 1.5 million. Now it is about 2 million. With a 33% increase in population since then, there is a larger pool of potential fans. And a larger pool of potential fans means like many more actual fans once the team turns good.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
The St. Louis Cardinals had a payroll of $105 mil last year
Do you think it’s possible for the Royals to approach that kind of money? St. Louis is of very comparable size to KC. And I firmly believe that the KC fans > BFIB as evidenced by the continued support for the team after 20 years of crap; I can see Kauffman filling on most nights if the Royals become contenders.
Keeping Hosmer would be a lot easier if the Royals could wield $100 mil.
i wonder what the cards tv contract is like relative to ours....
i really think that matters more in the payroll limitations than actual attendance
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jan 19, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
The KC MSA is smaller than the St. Louis MSA
but not greatly so. But St. Louis has a great long history, and recent success (even before 2011). St. Louis built a large regional fanbase over most of a century. That being said, I think the Royals, once they’ve built and sustained a winner for a number of years can maintain something like a $90M payroll (in today’s dollars).
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
I agree that after nearly 20 years of haplessness
That even 21K average attendance is impressive, especially considering population. There are some very loyal fans, especially the season ticket holders. The Cardinals averaged about 38K last year, and I can’t find numbers but my guess is that they sell many more season tickets than the Royals, and their ticket prices are higher. Add the more valuable media rights in and the Cardinals have a deefinite advantage in predictable revenue going in to each season.
I would expect an emerging Royals team to bring in more revenue and allow for higher payrolls. But at the start, spending might lag behind increased attendance. And while I expect Glass to spend more when more money is coming in, I don’t think they will be matching the Cardinals dollar for dollar any time soon, as disappointing as it might be to Royals fans. I don’t buy 55-60mil as an upper limit, but I don’t think 100-110mil is reasonable either, unless attendance and fan interest/spending soars, or revenue sharing changes significantly.
I wouldn't downplay the population difference that much...
Based on the 2010 census, the respective MSA populations are:
KC: 2,035,334
StL: 2,812,896
You mention above that the KC population has grown 33% since 1989 (and that included some rounding-off… I think that number would be closer to 25% using precise numbers).
If Kansas City were to grow to the size of St. Louis tomorrow, that would represent a 38% increase from its current population.
Of course, you are correct that the long history of the Cardinals also gives them the edge when it comes to sustaining a regional fanbase.
There is a 99% chance this deal gets done before Feb 1
and 80% within a week.
4 yrs, 38M with a club option for 2016 at 15M
99%?
Why so certain?
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 1:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Gut feeling based on,
Gordon has the same agent as Billy
He recognizes the importance Kevin Seitzer has played in his renaissance
He grew up a huge fan (well documented) and is a small town, family guy type
During the recent Royals Tour, he reportedly mentioned repeatedly to fans and those in attendance that a new deal will get done shortly …(for this source I only have my friend TJ who was there and whom I trust, and blog posts from fans who were there and say the same thing)
FWIW, one such blog post ("Royals")
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3129904004334636055&postID=3744062769688808961
I don’t know the guy/girl, but if he made it up, its the exact same report my buddy heard.
I suppose Gordon could have been just telling fans what they wanted to hear.
I WANT to believe it, so I’m going to.
Your gut might need to check the internet
Unless he’s made a very recent change, Gordon has been represented for a while by Casey Close, the same guy who represents Derek Jeter.
Billy Butler is not.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jan 18, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, my bad
I was looking around trying to find where I read that. I think maybe I was mixing up Michael Cuddyer b/c he just signed a 3 yr 31.5M contract and has Casey Close as his agent.
…not exactly close.
Also
The whole turn of events points to a long-term contract.
Moore has NEVER entered arbitration with any player. This has happened in the past with long-term signings (figures exchanged, then a deal made later) in his tenure.
What purpose would there be of doing it this way if they weren’t going to offer him a long-term deal?
What purpose would there be in doing what?
Exchanging arbitration figures? Moore has often done that. He always comes to a settlement, but he doesn’t always do it before numbers are exchanged. They might not get a long-term deal done, but they’ll almost certainly come to an arbitration settlement pre-hearing.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
He always comes to a settlement, but he doesn’t always do it before numbers are exchanged.
Are you sure of that? I read recently that DM has consistently reached settlements before numbers are exchanged, except when a long-term deal what reached.
I’m not sure that’s true, but I can’t think of an exception off the top of my head. For instance, the team and Butler exchanged arb. numbers last year shortly before announcing his four-year deal. Similarly, in 2009, the team exchanged arb. numbers with Greinke about a week before announcing his four-year deal. I can’t think of any player that agreed to a one-year deal after exchanging numbers.
Can you think of an instance where the team signed a player to a one-year contract after numbers had been exchanged? If not, I think that’s a pretty strong indicator that DM is expecting to reach a multi-year deal with Gordon.
Teahen. I think Buck. I know there were others. But it’s more common for him to reach a settlement before numbers are exchanged. Of course that is usually true of lower salary players (under $2M). And a minority of Moore’s arb-eligible players have made more than $2M. Not sure what percentage of the $2M+ arb players under Moore have gone to the point of exchanging numbers, but I think it is not an insignificant percentage.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 19, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
I thought that the deadline for giving out pre-arbitration contracts has been passed
But honestly my knowledge of arbitration isn’t wonderful. I know that an important deadline has occurred though.
There is no deadline...
…except that it wouldn’t be “pre-arbitration” if you do it after the arbitration.
At this point, numbers have been exchanged, but the arbitration hearing has not yet occurred.
Since Gordon's about to make at least $4.15 million next year
I’d say he’s definitely not part of the 99 percent.
by thelaundry on Jan 18, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
arb doesn't start until Feb 1, so anything could happen between now and then.
Billy’s agent also exchanged figures with the FO at the deadline, then signed his extension before the hearing.
I am optimistic that something similar will happen.
I'm willing to bet Alex is an 3 WAR player
over the next five years, with a couple of seasons well above that. I’d try offering him $45/5 and see if he takes it. If that all works out, we pay forty-five million for 24 WAR.
"That fucking fucker of a general swears too fucking much." --Unnamed soldier about Gen. George Patton, 1943
He might take 4/45
But not 5/45. If he’s a 2 WAR player, considering arb, discounts, inflation, etc. then over 5 years, he’s worth $53.3. $45M is a fair amount for 4 years if he’s a 2.5 WAR player.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
You might be right, but I wouldn't put too much confidence in these sorts of casual calculations
They’re good for getting a ballpark idea of where the contract should land, but the reality of a negotiation is probably a bit more complicated than counting up WAR and slapping a dollar amount on that WAR.
Certainly, but his agent has a good general idea of how much Gordon might be worth on the open market
And I think the WAR values approximate that pretty well (emphasis on approximate). And for Gordon, $45M over 5 years is light, no matter how you slice it.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I’m inclined to agree, but an argument could be made that 5/$45M is reasonable. It’d go something like:
Gordon has had only 1 truly good year during his 5 year MLB career, and while he looked like a star in 2011, the sum of his MLB career looks like that of an average player. At 27 years old, last year was likely the high point of his career, and if Alex is an average player going forward, a 5/$45M contract would be market value.
Additionally, while Alex is currently healthy, his history of missing time due to injuries is a concern, and if he were to suffer another significant injury before free agency, his market value would come crashing down.
I guess an argument can be made, but I think it takes you out of what could possibly make sense to Gordon. He is of course weighing security vs. the potential of a bigger contract down the road. And a 5/45 deal really tips the balance, IMO.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
I wrote about this at the end of the season at FanGraphs
there I just started at 3/25, but in line with that, anything from 4/30 to 4/40 would make general sense. I’m a bit leery of guaranteeing a fourth year at 4/40, but that wouldn’t be bad, especially if they evened the years out so that they wouldn’t be taking such a hit on the back end (sort of like Butler’s contract) and got a club option. No way would I guarantee a fifth year unless Gordon and Close were willing to give a big discount, which I doubt.
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I kind of assumed they would flatten out the back end of the contract (last 2-3 years), as they did with Butler. Gordon certainly wouldn’t have a problem with it, as it means more money for him in real terms. (typically I don’t like flat back ends, but I’m all for it here).
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
My thinking is, extensions don't work unless you buy out at least 2 FA years.
otherwise your only getting one extra year from what you would have gotten at a much cheaper price and without the injury/slump protection a multi year contract provides.
I don't know what you mean by "work"
As long as the money is right, the Royals would get a good benefit out of an extension where they only buy out one FA year. Two of course would be better. Three even better than that. If they were club option years, that would be best.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
Its proportionate to how many control years are left right?
I assume you are speaking of Gordon’s situation and not hypothetically. Gordon has 2 yrs of control left and so for the right price your saying a 3 yr deal would work for you. Would you lock Hosmer up if it only bought out on year? It seems to me I would have to get 3 potential FA seasons in order to justify buying out so many cheap control years.
It seems to me I would have to get 3 potential FA seasons in order to justify buying out so many cheap control years.
But even when cost controlled players get long-term extensions, they still get paid approximately cost controlled salaries during those cost controlled years. They don’t get full FA market rate salaries for the cost controlled years.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
this is true
but that is partially because you don’t know what their true FA value is. If you lock up Hosmer now for 8 yrs, 70 mil, you would really only basing that off of 500 ABs and his lofty status as a prospect.
by Bronzillo on Jan 18, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And if Hosmer were locked up now, he wouldn’t get anywhere near FA market value for the cost controlled years. See for instance every long-term contract for a cost controlled player.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
No, I wouldn't sign him to that contract
That’s paying him as if he’s going to be an elite player through most of his cost controlled years and the two FA years this buys out. It’s too soon to guarantee him elite player money. That deal is far too much in Hosmer’s favor and is not in the team’s interest.
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by Scott McKinney on Jan 18, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
I think I would risk it
8 years at slightly less than 9 mil per.
If he blows up in 2012 to the tune of .290/.360/.520 with 35 dbls, 30 hr, 110 rbi, the remaining 7 yrs would seem like a bargain, and that type of value opportunity might be gone.
If he sophomore slumps like a certain Atl LF, I would play the fool.
Of course, now that Hoz is training with A-Rod in his personal training complex in Florida, we KNOW that could never happen.
















