No Long-Term Contract Yet for Alex Gordon: Do You Want One?
Late last week the Royals and Alex Gordon agreed to a one-year $4.775 million dollar contract, essentially splitting the difference between what both sides had wanted this winter. Although discussions of a long-term contract with Gordon came to a head this month, there is not immediate urgency here: Gordon is still under team control through the 2013 season.
Gordon's at an interesting point in his career. He's not quite the second coming of Jose Bautista, but he fact remains he hit .244/.328/.405 in his first 1641 PAs, then hit .303/.376/.502 in 688 last season. He has the pedigree and a number of plausible explanations for his previous struggles, but you have to look at all the data.
I'm a Gordon believer and a Gordon defender, and it's a rare opportunity for me to feel right about something. Nevertheless, no matte what you think the ultimate cause was, Gordon has had an up-and-down career, with some definite downs. Heading into his age 28 season, Gordon could take another step forward and develop into a real offensive force. He might also see his batting average drop down closer to his career levels, which might offset continued gains in other areas.
Just under $5 million is still a very good price for Gordon. Jeff Francoeur, mind you, is getting paid $6 million for 2012 and $7.5 M for 2013. If Gordon reproduces his 2011 in 2012, the Royals will have one of those good problems teams face, with a valuable player heading towards a nice 3-arb payday. Having good players is a good thing. Of course, they also risk Gordon deciding he'll want to hit the free agent market.
On the other hand, the Royals hold some flexibility at the moment, which is apparently what they value more. If Gordon struggles again, they might be able to secure him for a lower price.
119 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
The Royals are in a bad spot if they don't sign Gordon to a multi-year deal this offseason.
If Gordon does well the first half, then he would be elevated to star status and the Royals would almost be compelled to move him at the trade deadline in order to get value for him.
If the Royals sign him now, they can give him a 10 million signing bonus and hedge against his value falling if he does not do as well this year.
Break out the checkbook and sign him to long term deal before it is too late, and it could be too late in just three or four months.
Go Royals!
What I wonder...
Is what his approach will be in 2012. He made big changes last year and had great success. It also took a complete revamping of his swing, and he seems to be working to improve it even more this season. What we know is what we’ve read from Lee Judge and Rustin Dodd. Basically: Gordon will be more aggressive with 2 strikes in order to cut down on strikeouts. Also, per Seitzer, Gordon was only doing about 70% of what Seitzer wanted. I don’t remember the exact phrasing from the Dodd article, but it seems to follow what Judge wrote. They’re not finished revamping everything. Plus, Seitzer flat out said that he thinks Gordon can cut down on strikeouts without losing power. I’d love to know how he plans to do that. Is it just being more aggressive with 2 strikes? I could see how more strikeouts could result from that. So that’s why I wonder what the approach will be. How does Seitzer plan to achieve the desired result?
By the way, I think Gordon has a good chance of hitting .300 again. In my opinion, you have to throw the previous years out. It’s not conventional, but I don’t think 2007-2010 has any bearing on 2012. Simply because of the new swing and approach. We shall see.
by hawkinscm87 on Feb 12, 2012 5:00 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I either don't understand or don't agree with this part
On the other hand, the Royals hold some flexibility at the moment, which is apparently what they value more
I don’t think we should assume that the reason there hasn’t been a long-term contract agreement is because the Royals prefer flexibility over a long-term commitment to Gordon. It takes two parties to agree to a contract. Right now the Royals and Gordon have not agreed to terms for a long-term contract extension. By all accounts, there have been negotiations. I think both sides are interested in a long-term deal, but they just don’t agree on the dollars and years such a contract should have.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
What do you think of the 6/80 Bukaty tweeted out the Gordon camp is asking for
Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com
If they are looking for that, that's ridiculous
unless there are a lot of club option years included in that.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
What about 5/$55m?
"That fucking fucker of a general swears too fucking much." --Unnamed soldier about Gen. George Patton, 1943
Yes, I agree.
The Royals want him here as much as he wants to be here. It’s just a matter of how much and how long.
And there's a chance that the two sides never come to an agreement on years and dollars
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
True, but of course that is true of every team with every player. A team may want a player for a long deal, but only for a price that makes sense.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
If Gordon is requesting as much as he's asking for, I think it's going to be hard to do a deal that makes sense for the team
I want Gordon signed to a reasonable long-term contract, and I don’t want him signed to an unreasonable long-term contract.
It seems like the nature of he arb system is such that Gordon will be extra cheap while he’s under team control (even more than the 40/60/80 shorthand), so many of the long-term deals are assuming significantly more money for his team control years than he’s actually likely to make. This means those FA years are evn more costly than they appear. I hope Dayton is cautious about spending big money to buy out FA years from an injury-prone player.
His Injuries Have
Been the kind that usually are not nagging or chronic, particularly the broken thumb. The hip labrum tear seems fully healed and unlikely to recur. Those are his only two injuries Iknow of.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 12, 2012 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
No, That's Jeffress
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 12, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
Is that a marijuana joke?
There are literally DOZENS of us!
by Tracer Bullet 82 on Feb 12, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
It's The Chronic
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 12, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
I just think injuries are likely to indicate more injuries in the future, even if they're different ones
Whether it’s because of the strength of his connective tissue or how close to the edge he plays or his tolerance for pain or whatever, I just figure that injuries are a sign of injuries.
I would echo philofthenorth's points about the injuries.
Also, I may be misunderstanding you, but the thing about buying out his arb years is to give him more money up front, which will actually help the club come out better. We’ll spend more on the arb year, but get a better deal for his FA years. Add it all up, and it’s much better than having a bidding war. That’s the one thing we want to avoid. Another team offering him more money and more years.
What I mean about the arb years
Most analyses of Gordon’s contract assume he’s an x-WAR player and WAR is paid at y $/WAR (plus some rate of inflation).
But Gordon is going to make 4.775M this year. And there’s no combination of x and y that would have gotten you a number any where close to that. And the same will probably be true next year and the year after.
So even a long-term contract that looks fair is already going to overvalue Gordon’s arb years compared to what he’s actually likely to make, which shifts the balance slightly against preferring a long-term contract
To clarify
When I say there’s no combination of x and y that would get you there, I mean no combination of x, y and whatever adjustment for team control (40/60/80 etc).
That depends on what you think his current true talent level is
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
If you think his true talent level justifies a salary as low as 4.775
Then you probably don’t think we should be holding on to him beyond his arb years regardless
Another thing, which we’ve talked about in the past, is that arbitration awards (and the settlements derived from them) aren’t based on WAR value. They are based on a conglomeration of old school stats from the past two seasons (by practice). And I think his likely WAR value going forward is very different from his old-school-stat value from the past two seasons. As great as his 2011 season was, it wasn’t spectacular from an old school stat perspective. .303 batting average, 23 HR, 87 RBI. Is that even above average for a corner OFer? True value takes into account much more. The arbitration process, and their panels of professional arbiters with no particular baseball knowledge or experience, does not.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with that
Which is why a long-term deal calculated based on $/WAR will over estimate his cost during the arb years and thus overpay relative to what the arb process would have cost the team.
That’s fair. Yes, I think it’s never a good idea to use WAR to estimate arbitration awards. They just don’t match up. The two processes use very different inputs. I think it would be fair to use reasonable, manual estimates of arbitration awards for the arb years, plus something WAR-based for the FA years.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
I agree again
But you’re the only one I’ve seen do that. Most of the other estimate of fair value for Gordon come out higher than yours as a result. And then Gordon is asking significantly more than that.
If the 6/80 is even close to the truth on what Gordon is asking, I have very little hope that a deal gets done.
Simply have to lock him up soon.
The people who say we need to wait and see if he is “for real” are going to be the same people who, if Gordon proves to be “for real” and becomes too expensive to sign, are going to bitch about how we can’t keep our star players and how cheap this organization is.
Gotta sign him. Yeah, there is risk, but you can’t be so afraid of risk that you simply do nothing.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Feb 12, 2012 7:10 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, and it's not like you have to be the Rays.
We don’t have to necessarily sign guys to long-term contracts when they have 15 days of ML service time. Not that we could have done that with Hosmer… Pretty sure Boras wouldn’t stand for it.
Yeah, this is the last chance to get him at an affordable price
That is, if they have that opportunity now, which they may not. Gordon and his agent recognize the huge money he could get and perhaps they value that opportunity to get massive money on the FA market over the security of a long-term deal now.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not worried
I’m not worried about the very poor
Don't you ever play GM- Lee "Touch of Gray" Judge
by tiquanunderwear on Feb 12, 2012 8:12 PM EST reply actions
I have never been more worried than I am right now
I have stocked up on bottled water and duct tape and I recommend you do the same.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
MRE's
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 12, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
Twinkies will do in a pinch.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 13, 2012 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
yes, thank you for correcting me
according to the intrawebs, they are Cheez-It crackers.
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
Cheeses-It
or Cheezes-It
Sort of like, “Can I have some more MilksDud?”
also, this
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 13, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Low speed chicken
You have to believe that Gordon believes that he’s going to improve over last year and so that locking into something long term at a time when his poor performances aren’t that far in the rear view doesn’t make sense. I think the royals will have to pay more than we think is sensible to get this done because I think the Gordon camp is comfortable playing without one—in his view with every game he plays this year he’ll be increasing his value.
by billexgordler on Feb 12, 2012 10:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I started a Gordon defender because...
1. He has the build of a stud athlete.
2. In my eyes, I thought he was a fantastic 3B which would add tons of value to a team to have an overachieving 3B, and one that had speed to boot.
3. I thought his batting stance and approach was holding him back.
4. Hometown kid.
Then somewhere along the 3B to LF transition, I was like, “Man, eff this guy.” Because:
1. He got a big bonus and never produced.
2. Wanted to transition to the outfield for reasons unknown. (Although in a current interview on the Hot Stove with Denny & Ryan I realize he wanted to move to the outfield because “that’s where the real athletes are.” Which makes me like him, but also dislike that he is essentially succumbing to a position bias where he must think that good athletes don’t play 3B.)
3. His general ballpark presence was one of a scalded dog.
But then 2011 came, and the stance changed and the stats came rolling in. I really thought Gordon was a lost cause, but him blossoming in the outfield was phenomenal. He was really busting his ass every single day out there.
I think the 1 year deal pretty much means that Alex will play for the Royals for half a year and get traded or finish a playoff/.500 run and never come back. Because either the Royals don’t think he is a stud and want to try to get him on the cheap or because the Gordon camp is asking for an extraordinary amount of money. The best case scenario would be that Gordon slumps for a month, picks it back up a little bit, and then signs a 4 for $30 deal.
I have a really, really bad feeling that Gordon will go absolutely nuts this year and it will be his last. I think we will see an MVP season and then he will go the Yanks or Phils for Jayson Werth money.
I am the one who knocks.
holy shit...
there is not immediate urgency here: Gordon is still under team control through the 2013 season.
I retract my argument…fuck
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Feb 12, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
I really like the Royals stance here...
it could get real expensive if Gordon catches fire and never slows down, but there is nothing that says he will do that…gotta think the Royals are right to sit on this one…
The Matt Cassel and Ryan Fitzpatrick contracts are fair warning
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Feb 12, 2012 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
Those guys came out of nowhere
Gordon had a pretty good pedigree before his breakout season. He’d be more like Alex Smith.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Its amazing..
After just one solid year most assume he will continue his quest for domination especially after how so few believed in him prior to 2011. Im in the PLEASE dont sign him to long term contract just yet camp. Mostly cause I want Gordon to prove to me it was for real, and second, I think long term money would be more wisely spent on the younger (and higher upside potential) Eric Hosmer, and Possibly Moose, Perez, Gia, Alcides etc
Lets just enjoy the ride, fellas......
I want to see proof too...
but the simple equation gets distorted pretty fast with Aprils stats
if the Royals are offering like 4 for $30 and are willing to maybe stretch it to $40 or $50,
while the Gordon camp might be asking for 6 for $80 and willing to settle for maybe $65
The stats that roll in in April will only distort each sides argument further away form the other…
there was a reason the 1 year deal was done
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Feb 12, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
He’s been average or better in most years of his career. He doesn’t have to play at superstar level (like 2011) in order to be worth a long-term contract extension. Waiting for him to “prove it was for real” means that in a year, his price goes up to essentially market rate. There’d be little reason for Gordon to give the Royals much of any discount. Want to pay 6/110 for him in a year?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, he's shown enough that I think he would be solid even with some regression
I’m not expecting him to hit .300 every year, and he doesn’t have to to have value. I think he’s more likely to be a consistent .800 OPS guy than the other corner outfielder under contract through 2013.
You are also betting on health with an extension, and even if previous injuries don’t recur, aging does. Mike Sweeney was not a health concern before he was extended.
I will give Dayton the benefit of the doubt in the specific area of extensions for homegrown players. I’m not worried yet.
by thelaundry on Feb 13, 2012 12:38 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'd even say he's likely to be a consistent 850 guy
and since they’ve given him one Gold Glove, they might keep doing it.
Should Alex break out the power and hit 30 HR, it’d be more like 900.
Why have the Royals always been a team with moderate power guys (Brett, Mayberry, McRae) (Alex, Billy, Frenchy—allowing for regression Frenchy hits 15 HR and 40 2B), and the occcasional very briefly successful fat guy (Balboni, Quinn, Hamelin)?
"That fucking fucker of a general swears too fucking much." --Unnamed soldier about Gen. George Patton, 1943
All depends on the price
Would we be paying him based on 2011? Or on 2007 – 2010?
batter nine you sucky
I think they'd be paying him based on 2007-2011
It’s a mixed bag of overall pretty goodness, with good reason to believe he’ll be better going forward than his career averages to date.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
I don't really see the "pretty goodness" overall.
2007: 317 wOBA, 88 wRC+. Ended up above average because his defense.
2008: His best season pre 2011.
2009: Played a third of a season, hit a fraction better than in 2007.
2010: Played half a season, was bad at everything he did.
by BeauJackson on Feb 13, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
First, by “overall” I mean all of his major league career (see the 2007-2011 dates I mentioned above). Second, I think his fWAR best shows his overall value over his major league career. By that measure, three of his five seasons have been above average, including one great season. And he’s averaged 2.36 WAR per season, which is decidedly above average. That’s not at least “pretty good” overall?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
If you look at his career.
It is one excellent season, two average seasons, two bad seasons. Quite a mixed bag. I guess we can call it pretty good, but I have a hard time seeing why we would do that.
I guess we can call it pretty good, but I have a hard time seeing why we would do that.
Because the overall results have been pretty good? 11.8 WAR over 5 seasons is pretty good. Certainly above average. I’m willing to throw everything in together, the good the bad and the average and seeing what the total picture looks like. It looks pretty good. And that’s just the performance record. And great scouting reports (tools evaluation) and you have an even better picture.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
Almost 60% of that WAR comes from 2011.
I like Gordon, but his results didn’t match the scouting reports for quite awhile. I’m all for signing him because I think his production finally caught up to the expectations this past year, but I don’t think his overall career has been impressive to date.
Almost 60% of that WAR comes from 2011.
And that extraodinarily good data counts just like the extraordinarily bad data from 2009 or 2010. It all counts. And I’m not weighting any season higher than the rest.
I like Gordon, but his results didn’t match the scouting reports for quite awhile.
Is that relevant? Maybe it is, but if so, how? He didn’t become a star right away. He was merely above average right away. I don’t know if he’s a star now. But he’s been pretty good, and the results are certainly matching the scouting reports recently. When the scouts say a guy is going to become a star and then he finally starts showing it, shouldn’t that give one pause to think that perhaps he is becoming that star? Maybe. I take that into account, but mostly I rely on the entirety of the performance record, which is at least pretty good.
but I don’t think his overall career has been impressive to date.
Above average. I don’t know if that should impress you or not, but that’s what he’s been overall. I think average is “pretty good” (which is where this back-and-forth began for us), but maybe that’s just semantics.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
I guess we're just looking at his career from different vantage points.
I see a guy who wasn’t living up to expectations until 2011. You see a guy who was still above average even if he wasn’t meeting the lofty expectations of being the #1 prospect in baseball.
I think we both want the Royals to re-sign him if the price is right, so all of this really matters little.
FWIW, expectations do not factor into my evaluation of him. I don’t care what the expectations once were. I just care how good he has been and appears to be.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
They don't matter at all to you?
You cite scouting reports, so one would think that would cloud your thoughts at least to a degree when it comes to judging how “real” a guy’s performance is. This past year for example, wouldn’t you think Hosmer’s performance was more in line with reality than Perez’s based on what was expected from them due to reports on ability?
by BeauJackson on Feb 13, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but I’m distinguishing scouting reports from expectations, although clearly there’s an overlap. The expectation from Gordon was that he was going to be great. If he’s only pretty good, that’s a disappointment, but pretty good is pretty good regardless. But you’re right that scouting reports do give us some idea of whether a good performance is something that may be real, or may just be a short-term fluke.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 14, 2012 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
With one of the average seasons heavily influenced by a fluky high uzr.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
And one of the average seasons heavily influenced by a fluky low uzr?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
Fielding components from fangraphs from 2007-2010:
8.7
-4.5
-2.6
-2.7
Which one of those appears fluky?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
A reminder that data can be skewed to meet the desired conclusion.
Also helps when you add plenty of narrative.
or leave out an entire season (and the most recent one, at that)
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 13, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW
The other half of 2010 Gordon hit extremely well in AAA, even adjusting for the offensive-friendly PCL (446 wOBA, 165 wRC+), which suggested that his underlying skills were still present.
"Ended up above average because of his defense"
…so?
Are you implying that the only reason why he was above average is his defense? You know, saving a run is as good as scoring one. I guess we should kick Escobar off the team because he is only above average because of his defense.
They shouldn't kick Escobar off the team.
They should also never give him a contract that pays him as someone who can field and hit.
Of course not.
But there is value in defense, and you’re post seemed to remove Gordon’s defensive contributions just because it would enhance your argument that way. All I’m saying is that you can’t do that—Gordon was perhaps a little slow to develop, but he had two years of solid contributions.
My argument wasn't that detailed.
Wasn’t trying to diminish his defense, just pointing out that his bat wasn’t good that year.
The bottom line is this:
The Royals are in no position to not offer him a long term deal before this season unless Gordon and co. are stuck on something ludicrous like 6 years/$80 million. There are multiple reasons why the Royals just can’t afford to not resign him:
1) He’s as local a star as we’re going to get that is willing to resign for less money.
2) His 2011 season was one of the best seasons of any Royals position player this decade. That’s a heck of an outlier. This, combined with his fantastic pedigree as a high draft pick who destroyed college and minor ball, makes him much more likely to repeat or come close to that season.
3) If Gordon repeats 2011 or close to it again, we’re looking at a much bigger payday. Gordon might decide to let a bidding war for his services commence at the end of the year after that.
4) The Royals must take chances. All small market teams take chances on players before they’ve completely ‘proved’ themselves. If you wait until a player ‘proves’ themselves, you’re looking at way more money. The Royals will need some of that money later and hopefully resign one of their stars in future year and starting pitching in 2013. They can’t afford to let Gordon leave if he’s playing at a high level. It’s worth the risk. If you’re Dayton Moore, and you don’t make moves like this, you’ll never win.
The more I think about it, the more I think the only viable options are
Sign an extension before the season or look to trade him ASAP. Otherwise, all you get is AG at market value, which is either not that great (just average and/or injured frequently) or way too expensive (very good or all-star level). Paying the market rate is something the Royals can only do for a select few players.
I also agree with this
They can’t afford to let Gordon leave if he’s playing at a high level. It’s worth the risk.
Now that the arbitration period is taken care of, all the Royals have to offer is “security” in the form of several years of certain income, but the only benefit to AG is getting that security one year in advance. That makes me worried that Gordon’s camp is right, and the only real option is trying to get a decent “security” discount in years 1 through 4, then high-dollar team option years with a very steep buyout (consolation for the team options).
Otherwise, it’s a midseason trade with a long-term deal done as a part of it.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 13, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps. But if the Royals really are going to be contenders in 2013, wouldn’t you want to have Gordon on the team, especially at less that market rate (as he’ll be in his fourth arb. year)? I’m not saying I wouldn’t trade him soon or even now if a long-term deal can’t be had, but there’s something to be said for his short-term value to a possibly contending Royals.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
That's true - option value, I guess
I didn’t want to go into it too much, but there is value of having AG under contract at all – at least he is a controllable commodity rather than a free agent. Even a market-value contract gives the Royals the ability to trade him with multiple years of control, whereas flipping him at the deadline means they’re only selling a half-season (or so).
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 13, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
You can't trade him.
Well, technically you can, but it would be a horrendous outcome and would deal a gigantic blow to the organization.
There are times in which things are ‘just business’. Other things are PR nightmares and send waves of negativity everywhere. This is one of those things.
The perception, nationally AND locally, is that the Royals are a farm team for teams like the Yankees. Beltran. Dye. Damon. Greinke. Four of the best Royals of the last 15 years, and all four—gone. When there are is excitement about a bunch of young players, this can’t keep happening. It sends a message to the fans that the Royals won’t do what is necessary to keep the players. Adding Gordon to that list after this year and maybe two more good years? Brutal.
That sends the message to the players that the organization won’t do the things that it needs to do to keep them. It sends the message to the fans that, just like the last two decades, the Royals will never win because they sell off their players when they get good. This has to change now. There is no option to trade Gordon or let him walk. They must keep him.
can we do away with this stupid perception?
The perception, nationally AND locally, is that the Royals are a farm team for teams like the Yankees
the royals havent made a trade with the yankees in like 20 years….and not a single one of the guys who left in FA signed with the yankees
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 13, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
If someone's perception is that the Royals "are just a farm team for the Yankees"
then I don’t think the Royals need to worry about the perception that someone would have about a player move.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 13, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
I would love to do away with it
It’s certainly not my perception. But there are an awful lot of KC people who see the Royals as a farm team for the big teams.
Agreed. Its been repeated enough that people believe it.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
There are times in which things are ‘just business’. Other things are PR nightmares and send waves of negativity everywhere. This is one of those things.
I don’t know. If they get back a piece or two that can help the team immediately, then would it be some kind of PR nightmare that must be avoided at all costs? Greinke was a better player with two years of below market value team control remaining. Was trading him a PR nightmare?
The perception, nationally AND locally, is that the Royals are a farm team for teams like the Yankees. Beltran. Dye. Damon. Greinke. Four of the best Royals of the last 15 years, and all four—gone. When there are is excitement about a bunch of young players, this can’t keep happening. It sends a message to the fans that the Royals won’t do what is necessary to keep the players
I’m sorry, but the only things fans care about in the long run is winning. The only thing that really brings fans to the park or to watch games on TV is winning. So I think teams should do what is best to maximize wins (and not just in the short-term). I don’t really care about sending messages. Messages are horseshit. Doing what will make this team a contender in the medium-term should be the team’s goal. Short-term message-sending and PR-based moves leads to nonsense that moves the organization in the wrong direction.
The bottom line is that the Royals will always need to trade away some of their best players from time to time. When players get too expensive, they will sometimes have to be traded. A small market team has certain realities. They can’t afford to keep every prospect that succeeds and becomes expensive. The Rays get this, so they move players when necessary so that they can remain competitive and avoid brief windows of competitiveness. You make smart moves, or you fail. Make moves based on PR is the tail wagging the dog. And when the tail wags the dog, the dog doesn’t get very far.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i agree with you on this...
but man, after being sold on 2012 and 2013…a large number of fans would flip shit if they traded gordon
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 13, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Certainly fans will always be upset with a good, popular player being traded
But it would soften the blow if he were traded for another major leaguer who could help the team now, especially a SP.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
Certainly winning is important.
But perception is also important, especially if that perception mirrors what’s happening. The perception is that the Royals trade away their players when they’re good. Sometimes this can’t be avoided because, as you say, the Royals are a small market team.
Trading Greinke wasn’t such a PR nightmare because people see him as a weirdo and it brought immediate return in the Shortstop Jesus. But it added to the negative perception that the Royals trade everybody away when they’re good. You don’t live in KC and perhaps don’t recognize the full impact, but if the Royals traded away Alex Gordon after last season there would be extreme backlash. Unless the team wins, which it hasn’t done in 20 years. If Hosmer gets hurt or something and the Royals finish 4th or 5th in the Central again, and the Royals happened to have just traded Gordon for prospects…that is worst case scenario. It would be awful.
Now mind you I’m not arguing that resigning Gordon should be because it’s a good PR move. I think it’s a good gamble that the Royals should take, and situations like this don’t come up all the time. But I am saying that the additional context in which this situation occurs intensifies the need to sign him.
However, I think goodwill is important. I think a positive view of the franchise is important. Perception is important. Remember, it is the fans who are the team’s source of income. Winning should be the priority, but when you can pull off a move that improves the team and reassures fans of the organization’s commitment to winning, you damn well better do it.
If they trade him, they're going to have to get back on the "Gordon's a head case" narrative again.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
I'm not sure
If he turns out to be a great player, then we obviously want him long term.
But what if he’s only average or he’s good but constantly injured – If he’s not a great player, do we have enough talent to be a contender? If we pay him $12MM/year, how much money do we have for free agents to get us into contention?
I also don’t see OF as a strong need. I’m pretty bullish on Cain and Myers, and if they emerge as every-day players, we’d have 2/3 of our outfield cost-controlled until 2018. We probably could fill in this spot with plenty of other less-expensive options than Gordon.
A conservative calculation of Alex Gordon's 4-year value
Assumptions for the sake of calculation:
2.5 WAR player for each of the next four years
1 WAR = $5.25M for 2012
MLB annual salary inflation rate of 5%
Manual estimates of arbitration awards
15% discount for long-term security.
2012: $4.8M
2013: $8M
2014: $12.5M
2015: $13M
TOTAL: $38.3M
I think that’s a low-ball, estimating him as a merely above average player or a high injury risk. Personally, I see him as more of a 3 WAR player going forward. In that case, the numbers would be:
2012: $4.8M
2013: $8M
2014: $14.7M
2015: $15.5M
TOTAL: $43M
IIRC, I’ve long held that 4/40 would be a fair offer for both sides. I still think that’s the case. But Gordon may prefer a little more risk for potentially a greater reward in free agency. And perhaps the Royals see more risk in locking down Gordon for 4/40 than I do. Hard to say, as we haven’t been privy to the negotiations.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 11:41 AM EST reply actions
And if you follow Scott's math at 3 WAR
2016 would be $16.3 million and 2017 would be $17.1 million. Rounding down for simplicity’s sake and making these years club options with $2 million buyouts, the deal could be 4 years, $45 million with the potential to be 6 years, $76 million. Maybe the Royals and Gordon aren’t as far apart as we thought after Bukaty’s tweet.
I don't know
As you add more guaranteed years at market rate, the Royals risk increasingly greatly. While I’d be comfortable with 4/40, I don’t think I’d be comfortable with 6/76. Now, if those are club option years, I’m good.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
I would only want years 5 or 6 as club options. I was just intrigued by your calculation and found it interesting that going out to 6 years gets you pretty close to Gordon’s alleged counteroffer. It’s more than I would want the Royals to guarantee, but it’s not outrageous.
Hi everyone... so this is my first time posting
I’ve been a constant reader of this site now for a couple of months and was hoping to start getting involved in the discussion, so here goes nothing and please bare with my mistakes:
Looking at some of our minor league player’s ETA for the majors I find both contracts to be very curious. A one year deal for the Royals makes a lot of sense. They have Jeff under contract for the next two years and barring any set backs you would have to think Meyers would be knocking on the doors within the next year. My thinking is that the Royals management thinks Meyers can produce at or above Gordon level and replace him in left field.
A four year deal would also make a lot of sense, however I highly doubt they would go any longer than that. I think it’s reasonable that Bubba Starling may be ML ready within the next 4 years. If they signed Gordon to a deal around those terms, I think they would be looking for his offensive production to be replaced by Bubba.
Overall, I’m pretty happy with a one year deal. I think Alex is a good player but I’m just skeptical at one season. There is a lot of reasons to be on the side of caution with this player. He provided two above average seasons at 3b and a great season in LF, with a history of injuries. I’m not convinced that going forward Meyers couldn’t replicate seasons producing the same amount of WAR that Gordon would going forward but at a far lower price. Seeing that we’re stuck with Jeff for the next two years, I just feel like this is the best possible solution.
Fair points
But I don’t think Starling figures in this at all. The odds of him making the big leagues are still long, and if he does make it and mash, then you can always work out a trade for Lorenzo Cain and/or Gordon and Frenchy should be long gone by then.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Feb 13, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
the odds of a #5 pick making the majors arent long...
the odds of him being better than gordon are fairly long
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 13, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I think the odds are against him becoming even an average MLB player
Not that it definitely won’t happen.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
I think his odds are still pretty long.
He’s gotta get some professional at bats before we start giving him a good chance to make it. We have to remember that he’s not an ideal high school hitter – because he is already 19 and not from a warm weather state.
the fact that he's from a cold weather state...
works to our benefit…if he was from a warm weather state and still this raw, it may make me think it’s never going to happen. however, being from a cold weather state and a 3 sport standout with little baseball experience gives me more hope that coaching and repetitions will make a big difference.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 13, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Darin Erstad!
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
22.8 WAR in his cost controlled seasons....i'll take it
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 13, 2012 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
My point was that we could come up with a lot of examples on both sides. Many successes and many failures. Probably more failures, just because more prospects fail than succeed. I think that holds true even for #5 draft picks.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
not considered at the same talent level...
and i never heard anything about him being a D1 player in 3 different sports
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 13, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think if he reaches the majors
The odds of him accumulating more value than Gordon has up to this point are pretty good.
Starling is a bit of a freak athletically. Speed, arm, hitting, field, power…there’s a reason people called him the most athletic player in the entire draft. That is a lot of people, guys. Starling, should he reach the majors, will be a very good player.
However, as we all know, Starling is raw and played in a coldbed of talent (good ol’ Kansas). He has a greater chance of falling on his face in the minors due to these things. I see him as a boom or bust. Reach the majors, he’ll do well. Or he won’t at all. I don’t see much middle ground.
I can definitely understand that
It just stuck out to me that the deals do seem to conveniently expire at times that you would be hopeful our prospects are ready. I wouldn’t be surprised if management is overly optimistic on Starling consider our recent successes with high school draft picks (which has been pretty incredible lately). By no means do I mean to imply that Bubba or Wil will actually replicate a 6.9 WAR season but I wouldn’t be surprised if management thinks they can produce 20 HR and .303 BA.
I wouldn’t be surprised if management is overly optimistic on Starling consider our recent successes with high school draft picks
I don’t have a high opinion of Dayton Moore, but he has been involved in drafting and developing minor leaguers for a long time. So he’s seen a hell of a lot of top prospects fail (because top prospects usually fail in the majors). So I have a feeling that he’s probably very realistic about prospect success. He knows many players (including many that he really likes) will fail. I think that’s a big reason he doesn’t want to trade them. You need a handful of top prospects to get one or two Major League successes.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
How does Cespedes' contract affect the negotiation for Gordon?
My suspicion is that it will validate Gordon’s side.
by WURoyal on Feb 13, 2012 1:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I don't see Cespedes as a comp
Cespedes’s contract comes entirely from scouting reports. There’s no performance record there. So I don’t see how they compare.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Feb 13, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
My suspicion
I think AG has enough banked from his signing and this arbitration, and a high enough assessment of his own talents, that he wants to go to free agency.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Feb 13, 2012 4:18 PM EST reply actions
Were I him, I would do the same.
This would be especially true after getting dicked around in 2010 (at least that’s how I’d have perceived the demotion).
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Feb 13, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
That request for 6/80 sounds to me like a guy who's planning on free agency
It doesn’t sound like the request of a guy who’s bargaining in good faith to reach a deal in order to stay.



















