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Mitchell Report Open Thread

I think it is a good idea to make an open thread for this topic.

Mitchell's press conference is at 1PM CST.  Apparently it will be available on MLB.com.  Selig has his own press conference scheduled for 3:30 CST.

So far ESPN is obsessing about Yankees who are named, including Clemens and Andy Pettitte.  This is of course old news for the world that has not be in denial mode for the last few years.

Some hopeful news coming out. Apparently Selig will only be given a copy of the 400 page report one hour before it is released to the public. Also it is being reported that Mitchell places some of the blame on MLB owners (and thus the commissioner’s office.)

Mitchell is reportedly recommending that MLB now outsource their PED testing (which would be a huge and positive change in my opinion) and to allow players to be investigated who have not failed a urine test if other evidence exists. I am sure Mitchell is thinking about the growing number of players who have never tested positive but who we know were purchasing undetectable drugs.

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The only question remaining
Should the offenders be

a) Ostracized
b) Castrated
c) Crucified
d) All of the above

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 12:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm not really down with the rumored
recommendation that more action can take place without a positive test

agreeing to being tested all the time is already a pretty big invasion...

by royalsreview on Dec 13, 2007 12:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the media will turn this into a shallow charade
i for one am tuning out on what will simply be a display of finger-pointing and subsequent half-truth denials that players, in their defense, will issue to the media.
"I'm tired of all these stupid a$$ questions every day. Why the f**k would I hit Brett for Miller?" The rest is history.

by DC Royal on Dec 13, 2007 12:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

By offenders,
do you mean the cheating athletes, or the ESPN biased media?

Eh, half a dozen of one, six of the other...

I choose D!

Let's Go Blues!

by powderbluesfor08 on Dec 13, 2007 12:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

While this is a charade...
...which blames only the players and trainers and ignores the complicity of the owners, I don't think this is entirely meaningless.  The players who used PED's do bear some responsibility and quite frankly they deserve to be outed.  Of course the sensationalistic media circus and the attempt at taking the high road by Selig and MLB is sickening.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 12:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Selig disgusts me
go blackmail another impoverished city to pay for a stadium and get the hell out of my life forever

by royalsreview on Dec 13, 2007 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I just wouldn't hold the players blameless
Sure it's fun to heap all of our indignation on Selig and the owners, but the players do have some responsibility for their actions.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 12:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if steroids are supposedly harmful
then aren't they already paying such a huge price anyway?

either this is self-regulating and self-punishing, pr we need to change our anti-steroids PSAs

Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Getting an unfair advantage in your sport
...is not ok just because you are going to eventually pay for it with your health.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 12:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

really?
i mean, i've never thought about it before, but if you essentially risk your life to hit 10% more HRs, that seems pretty self-regulating

by royalsreview on Dec 13, 2007 12:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Really
First of all, the negative health effects don't happen to everyone.  Second, when they do happen, there is a wide variance of intensity of those negative health effects.  Third, a sport should not and cannot allow athletes to get a competitive advantage through drugs, even if those taking the drugs will eventually suffer negative health effects.  It is partially self-regulating well after the fact.  And the fact that PED's are harmful to one's health has not kept many, many athletes from using them.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 12:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

By that logic
it would be perfectly ok for a pizza delivery guy to snort large amounts of cocain before his shift, which make it possible to deliver more pizzas than anyone else and much faster than everyone else, earning him greater tips and notariaty...he's only hurting his own nose and heart...
Let's Go Blues!

by powderbluesfor08 on Dec 13, 2007 12:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Unfair competitive advantage
Other than 'roid rage, that is the harm to others.  And that is really the only thing I care about with regard to MLB.  Like every other sport, we don't want some players chemically enhancing and getting a competitive advantage over other players who play clean.  Do you really not care about the competitive advantage issue?
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i just think its a chimera
there are all sorts of competitive advantages we recieve from the day we are born... where you live, who raises you, whether or not your neighborhood has a good baseball field, etc

but more to your point... i just really find it untenable that there is a bright line between "fair" and "unfair" training methods and procedures, between wholly OK training regimes with OK supplements and then Bad ones

then there is the issue of all the amazing surgical procedures we have in place (TJ surgery, etc.)

now you might say those just get you back to a previous level... but if steroids do that for someone in their late 30s, then whats the difference?

by royalsreview on Dec 13, 2007 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Physiology altering chemicals
I think there is a good reason that every major sporting organization on the planet bans PED's.  With some specific drugs like creatin and andro, the line may be fuzzy, but with most of them like steroids and HGH, the line is pretty clear and quite reasonable.  
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hahaha
You should blow up that picture of Byrd until it is nice and pixelated :)
David Howard was just the beginning. Hopefully TPJ is the end.

by RoyalsFanInMarinerTown on Dec 13, 2007 12:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

assualt or assault????
just checking...

by grudz69 on Dec 13, 2007 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh dear
and you wont believe how long it took me to make that thing

by royalsreview on Dec 13, 2007 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I came over here specifically...
to see what you would be saying re: Mitchell and Betancourt.
Will children still wake up early to eagerly check the sports page to see who is leading the league in holds?

by smtp from LGT on Dec 13, 2007 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's not pre-determine this report as a charade.
It will be released to the public in a few hours.  Let's at least wait until we have a better idea what is actually in the report.

This might be the last best chance to bring MLB into line with other sports in terms of drug testing and sanctions.  If this report fails I think the only option left is government involvement, and no one wants that.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 12:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It is a charade in that...
...it purports to be taking a serious look at PED problem in MLB.  What it is in reality is a list of players for us to blame and recommendations on what to do going forward.  Those two things are not without value, but it is an incomplete, owner-friendly effort which only looks at part of the problem.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 12:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

honestly what is accomplished by finding out
that 3 years ago someone took 'roids?

only in the very shakiest way does that help solve anything going forward

there is no reason for this report to name names other than sheer moral pettiness

Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 12:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Beyond any doubt a large number of MLB
players are still using PEDs.  This report will give us a better idea how widespread the problem was and remains, and perhaps will cause some policy changes.  Baseball is not close to clean today.  I hope this report is less about the past and more about now and direction for the future.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Those players deserve it
Being outed is a punishment that they deserve.  Hopefully it will affect their behavior going forward.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 12:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have no respect for anyone who cheats...
I would sooner root for a losing team, full of hard working guys who play by the rules, for the love of the game....than the winningest team of all time, filled with roided players. No-one forced any of these guys to take them. If coaches and management turn a blind eye, that ticks me off too, but ultimately the offending individuals made that choice to cheat. Just 'cause "everyones doing it" doesn't wash with me.
Let's Go Blues!

by powderbluesfor08 on Dec 13, 2007 12:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

My brush with fame
I actually "met" George Mitchell last year.  I won a fellowship for overseas research from the Truman Foundation and Mitchell was the invited guest of honor for the ceremony.  I was one of about 20 people who won fellowships.  

We all were lined up and had our picture taken with Mitchell individually.  When it was my turn I shook his hand and said something like, "It is nice to meet you Senator Mitchell.  And thank you for helping clean up baseball."  Mitchell laughed a few seconds and said something in reply which I no longer remember.  I think I was probably the only person in the line who thought of his baseball career before his government service.  

Mitchell seemed like a very good guy during my 15 seconds with him.  His speech during lunch was actually pretty funny and somewhat inspiring.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 12:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

mitchell is one politician
i respect.  although i am dubious about baseball ever being (or ever having been) 'clean', i expect his report will be thorough, and fair.

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 12:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He got his marching orders from Selig
No conspiracy theory here, but Mitchell was charged by Selig with the task of finding out about players using PED's and issuing some recommendations.  Mitchell is no boat rocker.  He's not going to go after MLB or the owners.  He's a centrist politician and he's going to play this one right down the middle.  He's going to name a bunch of players, make some vague references to how MLB might bear some of the blame, say MLB got into the anti-PED business too late and issue some recommendations for a better testing regimen.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 12:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what exactly are you suggesting
he do in 'going after' mlb and the owners?

sounds like he's suggesting an independent testing agency.  not sure what else one could do given the circumstances.  at some point you have a diminishing return with regard to punitive actions.  

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would suggest
That he honestly investigate and report in the role of MLB teams, management, ownership and leadership on PED use.  MLB leadership and owners were knowingly complicit in PED use for years.  The degree to which this is true and details and names are the only questions there.  It's just like with players using PED's.  We knew they did it, which just didn't know exactly which ones, when and how much.  My strong feeling is that Mitchell investigated the players and didn't investigate MLB or the owners at all.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well, according to espn hearsay
'the report assigns blame to both the commissioner's office and the players' union.' and 'exposes a serious drug culture within baseball, from top to bottom.'

i guess we'll see shortly...

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure it makes some such comment
...as I suggested above.  He will mention some blame for MLB and/or the Commissioner's office and/or the owners...but then he'll go on to list the names of 80 players and spend most of his time there.  Any investigation of owner's teams or the Commissioner's office?  None.  Any naming of names of owners or commissioners or detailing their complicity?  None.  I hope I'm wrong.  I'd bet my paycheck against it.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I trust him also.
I expect he did as good a job as he was able to.  The guy has dealt with much bigger fish than Selig and Bonds in the past.  And he seemed to be a very decent individual in person.

I have no faith in Selig doing the right thing unless he thinks it is in his best interest.  Selig fits into that huge category of "leaders"  who have no sense of right or wrong.  His whole world is angles and schemes.  I'd be very happy if Mitchell replaced Selig so baseball could have a real commissioner again.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 1:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

much bigger fish
and given his stature as a statesman, he has very little to lose with this report.  in fact, one could argue he would have more to lose if the report looks biased.  i think he'll do what he thinks is best for baseball given the circumstances.  

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 1:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we need a real commis
that is a true third party... not just Head Owner
Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Selig is no longer owner of the Brewers
And quite frankly, I think he has done a very good job as commissioner. Certainly better than "Hall of Famer" Bowie Kuhn.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Dec 13, 2007 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He still thinks like an owner though
I'm not so sure he ever got unbiased.  The owners chose him for a reason.

by mazoboom on Dec 13, 2007 2:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He acts in the interests of owners
...not in the best interest of baseball.  By all accounts, he is not an impartial third party commissioner.  He is the owners' commissioner.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just the fact that we are watching this news
conference right now is a strong argument that Selig has certainly not done a good job in the most important aspect of his job, protecting the integrity of the game.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Regarding names
It seems like the media is focused mostly on the names.  This is just one more example of poor journalism.  Supposedly the report will have about 80 names on it and we already know 64 of them.

I hope the report forces the media to start focusing more on fixing the broken testing system than on who the bad guys are.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 12:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Photo op time
What could be better than 80 MLB player perp walks?  The media is going to focus entirely on the "bad guys."  And the bad guys will all be players according to the in depth, hard hitting journalism of ESPN, et al.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 1:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

all I have to say is...
'bout damn time Clemens gets his due...I've been ranting about that AHOLE for years
Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Dec 13, 2007 1:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That bastard really pisses me off as well.
In my spectrum of baseball hate Clemens is #2.  And depending on how he reacts to the attention today, he might actually move past Bonds and claim the top spot.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 1:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, strangely
i think bonds benefits from the release of the report.  time to spread that hate monkey around a bit...

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 1:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They're handing out copies at the press conf!
This is just like Christmas morning.  I'm so excited!
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 1:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

And trying to report on it before they've read it!
And READING it to us on television. Great TV! It's like storytime!

by mazoboom on Dec 13, 2007 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It will be posted on MLB.com today also.
Open to the public.  Selig got his copy about one hour before it is open to everyone.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am really glad Mitchell is talking about
steroid use by high school and college players.  For me, that really is the heart of this problem.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 2:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

A friend forwarded this list
But I have no idea if this corresponds to the actual report.

Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Bary Bonds,
Aaron

Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell,
Dante

Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike
Cameron,

Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozze Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford,
Wilson

Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth,
Ryan

Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan
Gonzalez,

Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose
Guillen, Jay

Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia,
Jr., Darren

Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark
McGwire,

Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon,
Jose

Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Prior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero,
Albert

Pujols, Brian Roberts, Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy
Sosa,

Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel
Tejada,

Julian Tavarez,Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael
Valdez,

Matt Williams and Kerry Wood

"I'm tired of all these stupid a$$ questions every day. Why the f**k would I hit Brett for Miller?" The rest is history.

by DC Royal on Dec 13, 2007 2:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

that list has been floating around...
i dont buy it totally

too many misspellings

by LeoBloom on Dec 13, 2007 2:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's the e-mail rumor list
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Players named in the Mitchell report include...
Outed by Kirk Radomski and others:

Lenny Dykstra
David Segui
Larry Bigbie
Brian Roberts
Jack Cust
Tim Laker
Josias Manzanillo
Todd Hundley
Mark Carreon
Hal Morris (former Royal)
Matt Franco
Rondell White (former Royal)
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Chuck Knoblauch (former Royal)
Jason Grimsley (former Royal)
Gregg Zaun (former Royal)
David Justice
F.P. Santangelo
Glenallen Hill
Mo Vaughn
Denny Neagle
Ron Villone
Ryan Franklin
Chris Donnels
Todd Williams
Phil Hiatt (former Royal)
Todd Pratt
Kevin Young (former Royal)
Mike Lansing
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Adam Piatt
Miguel Tejada
Jason Christiansen
Mike Stanton
Stephen Randolph
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Paul Lo Duca
Adam Riggs
Bart Miadich
Fernando Vina
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagne
Mike Bell
Matt Herges
Gary Bennett Jr.
Jim Parque
Brendan Donnelly
Chad Allen
Jeff Williams
Howie Clark
Exavier "Nook" Logan

Alleged internet purchasing:

Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Paul Byrd
Jose Canseco
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Jason Grimsley (again)
Jose Guillen (current Royal)
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Darren Holmes
Gary Matthews Jr.
John Rocker
Scott Schoenweis
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
Steve Woodard

This is just what I've gathered so far after skimming the report.

by DarthYoshi on Dec 13, 2007 2:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

FP Santangelo
no, not him
Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, no call for a change to the current CBA
That's quite weak.  He could have said that improved testing was so important that both sides should negotiate a change to the CBA to now.  Instead, he's going for the path of least resistance.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 2:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Royals
Former Royals
Royals Mentioned

Paul Byrd

Benito Santiago

Hal Morris

Rondell White

Chuck Knobloch

Jason Grimsley

Greg Zaun

Phil Hiatt

Kevin Young

by BlueEyesAustin on Dec 13, 2007 2:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

you disgust me phi hiatt
Hal Morris justtook roids so he could bench press over 150 pounds

does anyone blame him

Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

all in all, a pretty big yawn
though i suspect the media would not have been sated by anything short of violence

time to move on

this whole thing just seems so feminine to me... endless analysis and pondering over things that are over and done with

Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 2:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That's just it,
these are not thing that are over and done with.  One of the clear findings he announced is that drug abuse is still wide spread in baseball today.  Today is still very much part of the Steroids Era.  This is a problem that has not yet been fixed.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree big yawn.
but I think it is b/c there are not the huge names that I was expecting. Also I think that this whole thing is a little ridicules unless you can tell me with out a doubt these are the majority of the players that were using then I think it is unfair to say they may now not get into the HOF.  In my opinion noting should happen b/c it was widely used.

by TXroyal on Dec 13, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The big news...
..obviously is the Clemens allegation.  He is now the Bonds of pitchers:  One of the best players in the game who became an all-time great on the strength of improbable and unprecedented late-career dominance made possible by PEDs.  

As a long-time Maddux fan, I've been pissed because Clemens has passed Maddux in terms of career rate stats largely because of his continued excellence during his "decline phase".  Maddux and Clemens followed different rules and Clemens has been a better pitcher because of it.  It's sad.  I've always thought that Maddux was better than Clemens; it's just too bad that the numbers don't show it.

by Billex Gordler on Dec 13, 2007 2:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i think maddox has gotten an = boost
from pitching in SD and LA
Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ballpark, league, etc...
Can all be accounted for in advanced pitching statistics.  PEDs cannot.

by Billex Gordler on Dec 13, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not yet
Let's get on those adjusted stats!

by mazoboom on Dec 13, 2007 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mitchell
At least in the press conference, he "blames everyone" in baseball but then goes ahead and specifically names 80 players.  For the owners and MLB officials, there are vague mentions of how everyone is to blame.  For the players, there is a list of names and specific details of everything we know about their PED use and associations.

I think this is appropriate for the players.  I think he should have equally investigated and reported on the actions, inactions and other complicity of MLB officials and owners.  Of course he didn't.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 2:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

do we even know that these names are legit?
basically, he relied on a few key trainers to serve as rats...

just sayin

Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mitchell recommends no punishment for past
The Mitchell Report recommends to the commissioner that no one in the report be punished for past acts detailed in the report.  That would include Guillen's acquisition of HGH.  
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 2:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I am satisfied.
I think some good will likely come from this process.

I agree with Mitchell's findings and his recommendations.  The only area I do not like is his not pushing more strongly for rapid change in the testing program.  Mitchell seemed to be saying that it should be changed, but not necessarily before the contract comes up for negotiations again in 2011?

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 2:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

yea, mitchell has a few moments of doubletalk
in there...
Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're satisfied?
Shouldn't he have gone after the MLB officials and ownership with equal vigor as he went after the players?  There is detailed information, evidence and names of players.  There is no such thing with regard to owners or MLB officials.  There is also a lot of MLBPA bashing and no commissioner's office bashing.  Is that a satisfactory investigation into and description of the past and current PED problem in baseball?
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I think he did it right.
It's not perfect, but it he did a good job.  And his recommendations are proper.  The report had its priorities in the right order.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The priorities were straight???
You think the priority of the report was appropriate in that it focused mostly on which players to blame, because that is exactly what it did.  You think it was appropriate to investigate players and not the owners or MLB officials?  I couldn't disagree more strongly.  This report was a blame-the-players report which whitewashes the role of owners and league officials.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 3:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Truth
I think Mitchell was right to out the players, but owners and the league officials got off REALLY easy.  In spite of the concluding message of the report, which said that blame is to be shared, the proportions of the report devoted to the players versus the owners did not match up to that sentiment at all.

by DarthYoshi on Dec 13, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
Even when the report does attempt to examine MLB and its testing procedures it speaks about "positive first steps" and important progress.  It also emphasises changes in the last 2 years while pretty much ignoring the incompetence and disinterest in the problem during the actual "seroid era".
I'd rather be watching baseball.

by Sisquatch Kids on Dec 13, 2007 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but you're talking about
very squishy ideas about complicity that are difficult if not impossible to prove.  and the players are the ones who actually TOOK the drugs, so it follows that the investigative evidence would center on that.

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, it does not follow
Just because nailing the players was the easiest thing to do doesn't mean it was the way to go.  It was the path of least resistance.  Mitchell could have investigated front offices, owners and MLB officials.  He didn't, period.  He didn't even look.  He's a part owner.  He was given this task by the owners' commissioner.  He wanted to focus on blaming the players, then mention that everyone was to blame and then say, "let's look forward."  Focusing on half of the blame here makes this a travesty of a mockery of a sham.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 5:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this is what diplomats do.
they follow the path of least resistance, that gets the best results.  personally, i just don't see the bias you're focusing on.

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 5:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From my read
...the vast majority of the content of the report is names and the details, evidence and accusations against names.  The report focuses on and emphasizes players.  One can't be too upset when the media then focuses on names.  That's exactly what Selig and the owners wanted.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you are missing his main point.
The report is about what happened, what is still happening and how to fix the on-going problem.  It is not about the names.  Mitchell was very clear about that and the report is very clear about that.  He opened and ended his press comments with that same message.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not about the names, and yet...
...most of the report is about discussing players and the sordid details of what they are accused of having done.  So he writes a report, the vast majority of which is about players and then says, "oh but it isn't really about the names.  I know we wrote mostly about the players in the report, but I sure hope the media doesn't focus on that too."
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

as a hypothetical
if allard knew benito was roiding, and based the aquisition of an ancient catcher on his continued usage, what would his (allard's) punishment be?  what kind of evidence would you need to support that punishment? where would this evidence come from? could you hold glass in some way responsible? what if one team is simply better at covering it's tracks than another? how could you fairly account for the complicity of management??

i just don't see how you could open up a can of worms like that and not spiral down into a pointless abyss that ends up hurting the game more than helping.  

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your hypothetical
This isn't about punishment.  Even Mitchell isn't looking to punish anyone.  He said his mission was to find out what the problem was, what the problem is and how to go forward.  Part of the problem was and is players.  Part of it is and was management, ownership and MLB officials.  Mitchell delved deeply into only one part of that.  The same investigative techniques used to discover what players did could be used to discover what owners did, what they didn't do, what they knew and when they knew it.

i just don't see how you could open up a can of worms like that and not spiral down into a pointless abyss that ends up hurting the game more than helping.

One could say the exact same thing about an investigation of the use of PED's about players.  If finding out what the problem was and is has any value at all, then it must include the entirety of the problem in baseball, not just the culpability of players and which players did what when.  If finding out which players used PED's doesn't hurt the game, then how does finding out the culpability of front offices, owners and MLB officials hurt the game?  This was a blame-the-players exercise which whitewashes the role of everyone else in baseball.  It was a joke.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 5:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

whitewashing
just don't see it.  i think everyone comes off pretty badly.

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Some questions
  • How many pages did the Mitchell Report devote to allegations of player use and purchase of PED's with all of the attendant details?
  • How many pages did the Mitchell Report devote to allegations of front office, ownership or MLB officials involvement, knowledge or complicity in player use of PED's?
  • Did Mitchell and his people even investigate that second issue?
The answers to those three questions tell you all you need to know about how much of a joke this report was.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 6:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it seems to me
that the recommendations of the report are each a tacit indictment of management's complicity.

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There are a few "tacit indictments"
...of management's complicity.  There are a few places where vague, implicit suggestions of complicity by mgt, while most of the report describes in detail all of the evidence they have against 80 players.  Do you see what I'm getting at.  On the one hand, they hint at the complicity and/or inaction of management, ownership and MLB officials and on the other hand, they go into voluminous detail in describing the despicable acts of players.  The report focuses on the culpability of players and occasionally gives a slight nod to the idea that others might be to blame as well.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 7:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i do see what you're saying.
but my feeling is that ultimately, the players took the drugs, so it makes sense to me that the players be the primary focus of the investigation.  it's the players that have to stop using, not management, despite it's obvious culpability.  

i really do see what you're saying, but as a realist my reaction is along the lines of 'what did you expect?'  (ack, don't answer that!) it's amazing enough to me that mlb and selig commissioned and paid for a report that would indict them to even this degree.  i think their complicity is pretty clear, even without the naming of names.  selig's weirdly hard line response to the punishment of players named in the report, despite mitchell's recommendation to the contrary, shows a kind of reeling reactive response.  i DO think management has taken a serious hit with the release of this report.

personally, i would have preferred that players were not named specifically.  i feel that more strongly haven digested your criticism of the breadth of the investigation.  but in the climate we're in right now, i can understand why mitchell felt he had to.  he had to show the pervasiveness of the activity in a way that would reverberate.  had he not named any names, i think the report would largely have been written off as hot air.  as it is now, it will be hard for anyone to accept the status quo of roid use going on in the future, and THAT was the real goal of the investigation, imo.

by 390 on Dec 13, 2007 8:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know this is not my argument
but I just have to say that I'm pissed about Selig saying that he may suspend guys on this list. That is absolute bullshit. Where were you five years ago Bud? It reminds me of today's politicians. They don't care about doing the right thing. It's all about what they think you want to hear to get you to like them. Ronald Reagan didn't really give a shit if you liked him or not. Neither did JFK. They did what they felt was best for the country. Now, I didn't mean to get all political, but why is Selig acting like he's running for office? It's like he's Pontius Pilate saying, "I'll give you Barabas". He's trying to be tough to guys like Jose Guillen to show that he's a "tough guy" when it comes to steroids. Well, where were you five years ago jackass? Everybody in the world was screaming to him to do something before it got out of hand. What happened? He sat on his ass and collected a check. He's reactive and not proactive. In today's world, that makes him outdated. The world has passed Bud by. Yes, the players should be ashamed of themselves. But, it's like the parent that never spanks their kid. Well, what the hell do you expect? I don't spank my child for fun. Hell, I don't really like being a disciplinarian. But, you know what? I got spanked.  I didn't do it again. That's what you do. You get tough and punish bad behavior before you have a monster on your hands (Have you seen half of these little spoiled brats these days?). Anyway, to end my crazy rant, I will say that the baseball union is a huge joke as well. It's not like these guys bust their ass doing shiftwork and yet they have the strongest union in the country. What's wrong with that picture? Yes, Bud has to deal with that monster, but that's no excuse for his poor performance and absolute botching of this situation. Sorry for the rant, but I'm just a little pissed about this stupid, pointless report. My report would be one page. Hell, one sentance. "Mr. Selig, resign please. Thank you, George Mitchell." Please welcome your new commissioner, Steve Palermo.

by royaldaddy on Dec 13, 2007 9:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fernando Vina
Better be fired from his ESPN Baseball Analyst gig.

by wheezie on Dec 13, 2007 4:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

go glenallen
go glenallen

fight those spiders

Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Dec 13, 2007 3:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

feeling a little let down and blah
even though i really dont even care about the issue

by royalsreview on Dec 13, 2007 4:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What a bunch of overblown, overhyped crap.
I don't know why I should've fucking expected baseball to get anything right in regard to this.

If you all will excuse this rather disappointed baseball fan, I am going to go get drunk and do something self-destructive like play violent video games or talk to a girl or something.

It's fine to disagree with anything I type, but I'm currently running on energy drinks. Be warned.

by NHZ on Dec 13, 2007 5:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

video games OR girls
why does it always come down to that

by royalsreview on Dec 13, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I tell you, it's annoying :P
It's fine to disagree with anything I type, but I'm currently running on energy drinks. Be warned.

by NHZ on Dec 13, 2007 8:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What should have happened
Selig should have given written assurance that any player talking to Mitchell would be granted immunity from any punishment for past transgressions in exchange for their candor.

Governmental entitites (fed, state, and local) should all have agreed to said immunity.

The report should have been written with ALL names OMMITTED.

In return, the MLBPA should have agreed to MEANINGFUL reforms in the testing procedures, and pledged to work with MLB as a PARTNER to help eliminate the FUTURE abuse of PEDs and HGH.

Sincerly,

Mike, from LA LA LAND

We now return you to your normal rantings...

by loyal2s dad on Dec 13, 2007 5:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

By the way,
Mitchell only had access to a few select "sources", which still produced 80 "names".

THERE IS NO WAY THIS LIST IS COMPREHENSIVE, in fact, any intelligent person would be foolish not to conclude that the VAST MAJORITY of players at least dabbled in this at some point. Look at it logically - ONE clubhouse attendant, in ONE locker room, was able to contribute this many names. Who's to say what would happen if 29 other attendants were facing federal charges and forced to squeal? I think my premise would, no doubt, be proven.

If you buy the premise that the problem was SO PERVASIVE, as Mitchell indicates, and logic dictates, then perhaps it is OK to just ignore the whole thing.

NO MORE LABELLING THIS THE STEROIDS ERA.

NO MORE TALK OF ASTERISKS BESIDES RECORDS.

NO MORE.

Work on fixing the problem, and MOVE FORWARD!

Couldn't agree more with the complaints here about ESPN - why report on the TRUE MEANING of the report, when you can dummy down and sensationalize it for the STUPID FANS, who are no more intelligent than your average lemming? Sadly, ESPN used to be about good journalism a long time ago - but now they are all about the DOLLAR, just like the rest of the media...

by loyal2s dad on Dec 13, 2007 5:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Amen.
I'll drink to that.
It's fine to disagree with anything I type, but I'm currently running on energy drinks. Be warned.

by NHZ on Dec 13, 2007 5:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hang 'em high
This whole thing is ridiculous.

I realize I'm in the minority but I'm really not that worried about players using these types of drugs.  Their use has been rampant in all sports for years and it's yet to affect my enjoyment outside of the media hyperbole and witch hunt atmosphere surrounding Barry Bonds and baseball in general.

I will say it's probably not a good idea for younger players to use steroids thinking it's their ticket to getting to the majors but does pointing out all of these major league players were using them do anything but encourage them to try the same thing?

by Pauli on Dec 13, 2007 5:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Here's the difference
The NFL thumps it's chest and says "look at our strong drug policy", while MLB conducts a glorified witch hunt designed to deflect blame from the commisioner/owners.

Ignorant public/media fall for the NFL's superior PR aided bullshit, and go ape-shit over the abuses in baseball.

Meanwhile, take a look at the average sizes of NFL players this day and age, and decide for yourself which sport has the more pervasive problem! Seriously, the problem has to be at least as widespread in football, but there's no media outcry, no Senator Reports, no hearings before congress, and no talk of steroid eras, asterisks, and loss of national innocene.

ABSURD!

by loyal2s dad on Dec 13, 2007 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well, thats what you get with a slub like Selig
The NFL consistently presents itself as having a great poicy, etc etc. THe new MLB policy is actually tougher, but instead the MLB machine has gone out of its way to dredge up the past in an effort to cover their ass.

by royalsreview on Dec 13, 2007 6:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Selig can bite me
Well, naturally, Bud is talking a big game about taking swift action, etc.

Didn't see any indication of him doling out suspensions for any club officials or HIMSELF, as ultimately he is the one responsible for PRIORITIZING the CBA negotiations.

If you REALLY thought this was as important as you say it is now, Bud, then significant testing should have been the TOP PRIORITY in negotiations with the player's union, not revenue sharing, etc.

Alas, we all know he answer to that one - Bud is as guilty as ANY of the USERS, because ULTIMATELY THEY WERE ALL DOING WHAT THEY WERE DOING FOR THE MONEY, AND NOT FOR ANY GODDAMN OTHER REASON THAN THE MONEY.

Stop the hypocrisy!

by loyal2s dad on Dec 13, 2007 5:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The problems with MLB will never be
fixed until we get a real commissioner. For those who say that they don't care about drugs that players take, I feel sad for you. I love this game and I don't want to see it belittled by people. All these overgrown, big headed apes make the sport of baseball look stupid. It's embarrassing and I don't think this report is worth a pile of rat turds. Nothing will get done until Selig is gone!

by royaldaddy on Dec 13, 2007 6:51 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

One last thing...
I hate to say it, but this list/report really settles nothing. The witchhunters will lust for more, but from my end, I just see more questionable accusations.

If you played in the late 90s and angered a trainer -- maybe you slept with his girl, maybe you got in a fight about politics, who knows -- you could easily end up on this list.

by royalsreview on Dec 13, 2007 7:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Amen
90 % of this list could be bullshit. A lot of it is he said/she said. By looking at evidence,we know Bonds is a roidhead. We know Clemens is a roidhead. Did steroids make these players? No. Did it help them play well into their 40s? Hell yes!  What are we going to do about it? Nothing. It's too late. The respected home run record? A joke. 500 career home runs? Once an accomplishment, but with steroids, a normally average player could pull this off (Yeah, I know Sammy. No habla Englis). We should've been working on something a long damned time ago. But, no. Bud Selig just wants to push blame onto everyone but himself. He's not the commish, he's the damned emperor. Can we not get rid of this bum or what?

by royaldaddy on Dec 13, 2007 8:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Roid Induced
HR numbers were actually welcomed by MLB. After the year without a Series, the public (including me) was disgusted with the whole MLB scene. MLB consciously looked the other way while two formerly good power hitters turned into The Big Boppers. I'm so old, this is like last week to me. Most people thicken with age, but McGwire? Donnez moi une fracture!
I'm not getting older....oh, wait, yes I am....and slower.... and weaker. God, this is great!

by philofthenorth on Dec 13, 2007 8:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

No Seasonal Counting
Stats for pitchers came under assault in this era, so I think this diminishes the dudgeon of baseball fandom. This is not rational, but it may be the difference. I've been telling people that Clemens was roiding out for the last 10 years. I am not his fan!!!
I'm not getting older....oh, wait, yes I am....and slower.... and weaker. God, this is great!

by philofthenorth on Dec 13, 2007 10:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My take on the day's events
After reading the comments on this forum and watching a few hours of television reporting I am a bit disheartened by two things.

The first is the willingness of so many to allow the main issue to get lost.  The point of this report was not the names.  It was commissioned to document as well as possible the history of the problem, determine the current level of drug abuse in baseball, and offer recommendations to correct the problem.  Better than any previous effort the report lays out how widespread the abuse was and continues to be and offers what to me seem like some very clear minded recommendations to help baseball recover from this mess.

The second is this odd willingness to excuse the players who illegally used PED's just because management pretty well knew what was going on and did not stop them.  Management is at fault here, but those players are wealthy privileged adults and are responsible for their own actions.  How much or how little the boss knew does nothing to reduce their personal responsibility.

In my opinion what happened today was a very productive if imperfect first step in getting these damn drugs out of the game.  I think we all have that same goal.  Let's be happy something is finally being done.

by James Quinn on Dec 13, 2007 9:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think I understand the issue
But Mitchell and his report are not beyond criticism.  Nor do I think he, Selig and MLB deserve my thanks because they are doing something.  We are far beyond the time when merely doing something about this problem gets my respect.  What they did was a PR report which spent most of its time detailing individual player misdeeds.  Have you read it?  

While this is certainly imperfect, it is not the first step.  Their first imperfect step was testing players but not releasing the results or punishing players.  Their second imperfect step was banning steroids, but little else.  Their third imperfect step was banning additional PED's like HGH.  Their fourth imperfect step was the current testing scheme which Mitchell rightly pointed out is weak and needs improvement.  By my count this is MLB's fifth imperfect step.  Of course, "imperfect" in this context is a euphemism for extremely flawed.  Let's call a spade a spade.  This report was a joke, which at best has some decent recommendations for minor improvements in MLB's anti-PED program.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 10:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mitchell Report grade card
  • Document the history of the PED problem in baseball - D+ They only looked at the role of players in the PED problem in baseball.
  • Determine the current level of drug abuse in baseball - D Again, they only looked at players and all they did was recycle the accusations from some books and a handful of informants.  They came up with no new information or better information.
  • Offer recommendations to correct the problem - B- The recommendations were pretty obvious and are things that MLB would have likely done anyway (I wouldn't be surprised if those recommendations actually came from the office of the Commissioner, through the Mitchell Report).  And the recommendations were so light and mild that they didn't even call for the two sides to immediately negotiate changes to the CBA.  The report is happy for us to wait until 2011.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Dec 13, 2007 10:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Disgusted
I'm disgusted with MLB but not surprised.  I doubt any group of capitalists holds their customer base in in as much contempt as MLB because they know we'll come back no matter what.

2 points:  

  1. for those who don't think steroids can be medically harmful short term do some research on Daryl Kile's cause of death and the relationship to anabolic steroids.  You might find yourself thinking  "wow, maybe the marijuana revelation was a limited hangout like McGwire's andro bottle"
  2. isn't the real issue here one of right and wrong?  We have players who cheated and owners who cheated their fans by holding out cheaters as legitimate record breakers when they knew or should have known that the playing field wasn't level.  That makes MLB a fraud in my eyes.  The players are a symptom- a very visible symptom- but the owners and management who let it happen are making billions.  That's not an accident.  I'm guess the owners are calling us suckers today after the report was released.  And they are right, we are.  
This report ultimately changes nothing.  Just as it was intended.
. . . a weary nation turns to Gil Meche

by vegasroyals on Dec 14, 2007 7:03 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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