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Manager Scapegoating

I want to start this by saying that I've never been a Buddy Bell fan.  I think he's a mediocre manager.  He does some things well.  He does some things badly.  I hated how he handled Huber when he came up last year.  That was an embarassment.

But I also don't think blaming our losses this season or last season on Buddy Bell really doesn't make much sense.  Fans of every team complain about their manager sometimes.  Fans of every team that is under .500 complain about their manager incessantly.  That's just how baseball fans are.  But rarely do I think the manager deserves most of his criticism.

With a different manager -- pick your favorite -- I doubt this team would have won 5 games so far.  Buddy Bell isn't to blame for the poor hitting.  Buddy Bell isn't to blame for the poor relief appearances.  Buddy Bell isn't to blame for Odalys Perez's implosions.

Every time I follow a game thread of any team (not just the Royals), every move of a manager is criticized.  "Why is he playing?"  Why is he batting 7th instead of 5th?"  "Why did he put in that pitcher?  That's so stupid!"  It is microanalysis of the worst kind.

Whenever Bell (or any other manager) makes a pitching change, fans usually respond with "don't take him out now!" or "don't put that guy in!".  If the new pitcher does something bad, then the fan feels vindicated.  If the new pitcher does well, then the stupid manager just got lucky.  It is self-proving illogic.

I've also seen Buddy faulted for not sticking with the same lineup.  My question is who cares?  So what?  I don't think his tinkering helps or hurts.  And it's not like he makes wild, nonsensical moves like batting Trip Pena leadoff and moving DeJesus to the ninth spot.  I think this is critcizing Bell just to criticize him.

Buddy does have his faults.  He has played vets too much to the expense of young, developing players.  He may be too wedded to R/L matchups with the bullpen.  But, in case you haven't been following baseball too closely, that is what the vast majority of managers do.  That is standard, traditional baseball.  That is very Tony LaRussa.

Which leads me to my final point.  If you hate Bell so much (and I don't think there is much good reason to hate him as a manager), then

1) Who would you like to be the manager?

and, more importantly

2) Why do you think he would be better?

Buddy Bell is your standard, garden variety major league manager.  Doesn't take a lot of risks and plays it pretty much by the book.  If we could get a better manager in here, I'd be all for it.  But I don't know if I'm in love with change just for change sake.  If any of you guys who really dislike Bell as a manager would like to sell me on how he's so bad, please do.  But remember, we'd have to find someone actually better than him if we fire him.

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Buddy Bell
is not a great manager nor do I believe that a different manager would make a world of difference.  If the teams not hitting they're not hitting.  I would like to see a change perhaps with the hitting coach and let things trickle upwards from there.  I believe the team needs something to help them shake off the doledrums and play to their potential.  I think Terry Pendleton or Joe Girardi would be my top choices for hitting and handling of young players respectively.  
lordbyronk

by lordbyronk on Apr 18, 2007 5:26 PM EDT   0 recs

Fire Bell
Why is the burden of proof on us? He's been given over a 1,000 chances to prove his a good manager and he's failed.
FIRE BELL

by FireBell on Apr 18, 2007 5:50 PM EDT   0 recs

How has he failed?
By not turning a team that isn't very talented into a winner?

by NYRoyal on Apr 18, 2007 5:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

his job is to win
he's never won

even Pena got a low talent team to win here

FIRE BELL

by FireBell on Apr 18, 2007 5:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

So, regardless of talent, you fire every manager
who doesn't get his team to win?  That doesn't make much sense.  Actually, I don't think that makes any sense.

I judge a manager by how well he does with the talent he is given.  Bell has had little talent to work with so far.  This season, I think he has more talent to work with, but I'm going to give him more than 15 games to prove himself this year.  This team isn't winning mostly because of poor hitting.  Bell isn't to blame for any of that.  Under .200 averages by Teahen, Gordon, Sweeney and Shealy aren't Bell's fault.  

by NYRoyal on Apr 18, 2007 6:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The 2003 team played a mile over its head
and then predictably fell on its face at the end of the year.  If Pena were a magical manager who could make bad teams win, then he would have shown it the next year as well.  He didn't.

by NYRoyal on Apr 18, 2007 6:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

NY Royal
out of curiosity, what would your managerial pick be if you were to change managers?
lordbyronk

by lordbyronk on Apr 18, 2007 7:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's a good question
I don't have a good answer.  That's why I'm not so jazzed about dumping Bell.  I don't see anyone out there that would be an obvious upgrade.

by NYRoyal on Apr 18, 2007 7:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You don't have a good answer yet
you are chastising us for getting on Buddo the clown.  If it is true that he is your garden variety manager and plays by the book.  Then Buddo needs a new book.  If he can read at all.

Managerial moves that have failed in the first 16 games.  

  1. Intentional walks
  2. moving the infield in or out
  3. Use of the bullpen
  4. Lineup mismanagement
This isn't new.  We saw the exact same thing last year from Buddo and his staff.  After watching aseason of his bumblings I have a very short fuse when it comes to his management.

As, I have told you before you may think my view is stupid.  But, I will DOG who I want and when I want.  I am sure you will have a response to this post...you always do.

by grudz69 on Apr 19, 2007 12:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Does anyone have a good answer yet?
...because I haven't heard one yet.  My answer is to keep Bell until someone comes up with a good replacement.

You don't have a good answer yet

Exactly.  And without a good replacement solution, I wouldn't blindly fire him and go with an unknown.

Managerial moves that have failed in the first 16 games.

Let us deal with these one at a time.

1. Intentional walks

Most of those were good calls.  Walk a good hitter to set up a double play opportunity.

2. moving the infield in or out

Those are tough calls.  Sometimes they work out.  Sometimes they don't.  You act like it is always obvious when it is the right thing to do or not.  It isn't.

3. use of the bullpen

Overall, I think he has used the bullpen in a very mediocre way.  Some mistakes.  Lots of good moves.  Some fans will complain every time he pulls a pitcher.  Some fans will complain with every pitching choice he makes.  But, usually he makes the right call.  The only obvious F-up he's made in this regard is late in that Baltimore game where he put in Standridge.

4. Lineup mismanagement

At worst, he's been mediocre in this regard.  He has needed to sit Sweeney for obvious reasons.  He has needed to sit Grudz for obvious reasons.  He's done a good job of getting German a lot of work.  He has wisely sat the slumping Gordon and Teahen sometimes against lefty starters.  I thought he played Gload too often, but Gload has actually hit pretty well.  Bell's lineups have been pretty good.

As, I have told you before you may think my view is stupid.

No, I just disagree.  Actually, I would be in favor of firing Bell if someone can come up with a good argument for why a specific someone else would be better.  If you can tell me why prospective manager X will be better than mediocre.

But, I will DOG who I want and when I want.

Believe me, Grudz, I know you will.

I am sure you will have a response to this post...you always do.

Uh...yeah.  Isn't that what these diaries are for?  Exchanging ideas and opinions?

by NYRoyal on Apr 19, 2007 1:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Motivation and development
These are two things Bell is obviously not good at. These are two of the biggest things this team needs. To see this, you just have to watch them. They're not really excited. They don't look like they're having fun. They are pressing and not in a good way. My choice is Frank White. He did a great job with the Wranglers and those players he did well with are the future of this club. He's well respected in the Royals community. To me, this just makes sense. Don't wait until the offseason because we need to give the new guy time to evaluate this team to see what he wants to do with it. I'm not the smartest man in the world, but I can see that Buddyball is not going to work here. I'm not saying that Buddy is a bad person. I just think he's a bad manager. I think he's a good bench coach, but he just shouldn't be running a team.

by royaldaddy on Apr 18, 2007 6:04 PM EDT   0 recs

I don't know about that
I have no idea if he's doing a good job at motivating them.  We have no idea what that clubhouse is like.  We really don't even know what the dugout is like.  We don't know how those guys feel at all.

They might be down.  They might be pressing.  Sucking and losing will do that to you.  It's not like a manager can just waive his magic wand and loosen a slumping team up.  And we really don't know how much success he's having with that.

And Frank White is a complete shot in the dark.  He's had little managerial experience and none in the majors.  A little time at AA and some brief coaching stints in the majors.  I have no reason to believe he'd be a good major league manager.  Yes, I loved him as a Royal, but do you think he'd be a better motivator?  Why?  Because he did well with a very talented Texas League club?  Do you think he'd have a better lineup than Buddy?  Why?  Do you think he knows how to handle a rotation and bullpen?  Why?

Going to Frank White at this point would be change for change's sake and betting on a completely unknown commodity.

by NYRoyal on Apr 18, 2007 6:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Why Frank
  1. he'd be given more of a chance by the fans. It'd be a lot harder to ride a fan favorite. Buddy was never a very popular choice. He's a reminder of the old regime.
  2. If you see motivated players on that field, show me where. With Extra Innings, I watch multiple games nightly and most teams don't look suicidal like ours. He has to be a better motivator by default.
  3. AA or Little League, his track record is better than that of Bell. Bell hasn't ever won anything.
  4. The players that were playing for Frank the last two years are the future of this team. They trust Frank. They respect Frank. He guided them to a winning season.
All of these reasons lead me to believe that Frank White is the manager that should be in our dugout. But, that's just my opinion.

by royaldaddy on Apr 18, 2007 6:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Fans rode
John Wathan and Hal McRae pretty hard and they were fan favorites too. When you're the manager, you have a big ol target on your back. If Frank wants to blemish his record, the best thing he can do is become Royals manager.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Apr 19, 2007 11:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

this is why George Brett will never manage...
shall his mythical status never be harmed
Buy the ticket, take the ride.

by PhattStairs on Apr 19, 2007 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My thought is this....
Why not Frank White?

Yes, I agree that it would be change for change's sake...but I fail to see a problem with that.  If you feel that Bell is mediocre, then why should we stick with him?

Personally, I feel that a manager has little influence.  Short-term managerial decisions (when to bunt, when to steal, etc...) are fairly unimportant and long-term managerial decisions are usually bottlenecked by the general manager.  In this mindset, why not go ahead and change to someone else.  I think it would have little change in the short-term, but there's little to be gained by keeping Bell around in the long term.  I'd rather let a rookie get a shot and see.  If this season is just about making a step forward, then let's be consistant.  

In my opinion, the thing that I'd like to see is to get Bret Saberhagen in as a pitching coach (although, this doesn't have to be at the major league level by any means).  He might be terrible at it, but he might not.  I'd be interested in seeing if he can contribute his knowledge to our pitchers.

"I DARE you to make less sense."

by dejackso on Apr 18, 2007 6:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This is a first
Well..I knew it had to happen one of these days, NYRoyal.  I disagree with you.

Buddy Bell is a bad manager without the most talent.  No..he's not to blame for the middle of our line-up not hitting.  Nor does he deserve credit for Dejesus or Buck's hot hitting.

However..his job is to put the best possible players in the best possible situations to win.  If he is only responsible for 4-5 games a year (which I believe is more) then damn it..I want to win those 4-5 games and not lose them.  It just seems that he throws up hands, shrugs his shoulders like Bud Selig at an All-Star game.

The best example of this..the tied, extra innings Baltimore game.  Nobody but Buddy Bell would have brought in Standridge.  Maybe we still would have lost, but I don't think anybody here would have been saying..why did we bring in such and such..we should have brought in Standridge cause he was rested.  Now..we might have argued for Soria over Peralta or such and such over such and such (but really..that's petty), but none of us..not a single one of us... would have argued for Standridge.  Only Buddy Bell.

This team also has no balls.  Freaking Bonderman knocks down 3 of our guys and we don't even brush anyone of their guys off the plate..WTF.  Teams are going to keep doing that until we stand up and jab them in the chin.  That attitude comes from the top down.  Buddy has said we aren't going to do that.  Well you know..you don't have to hit guys (although I'm all for it) but you have to knock guys down every know and then.

The Royals have had the longest losing streaks in team history ever under Buddy Bell..maybe that's not his fault (just unlucky)..but it doesn't help his cause.

Finally..Buddy Bell manages like he's trying not to lose instead of trying to win.  There's a fine line in there, but bringing the infield in in the first innning I think crosses the line.

As far as replacements..I argue for myself.  What kind of experience do I have?  Umm..none, but I am passionate and I want to win EVERY GAME.  Plus..I might just make one of you guys/gals my bench coach.  Maybe I'd make it a revolving post.  Also..a repeat of the McRae phone-a-thon might/would be in order.  

Honestly though..anybody but Bob Boone.  Anybody.  Certain guys wouldn't get me excited, but I'd see what they've got.

by Stook on Apr 18, 2007 6:33 PM EDT   0 recs

Good points, but...
I hear what you're saying on the bullpen.  That Baltimore game and putting Standridge in was pretty indefensible.  However, every manager is going to make some of those decisions.  Every manager uses every reliever.  That means you're going to see more of the bad end of the bullpen than you want.  I think Bell is decent at handling the pitching staff and making those in-game decisions.  Not good.  Not bad.  Pretty mediocre, like the rest of his managing.

This team also has no balls.  Freaking Bonderman knocks down 3 of our guys and we don't even brush anyone of their guys off the plate..WTF.

I think you were on solid ground with your bullpen argument, but here I think you get pretty marshy.  I don't value very highly a manager's willingnes to have his pitchers knock other players down.  I saw the game and Bonderman wasn't head hunting.  If he were, then retaliation would have been necessary.  Other than that, I want Royals pitchers to follow the game plan.  Make the right pitches according to he book on the batters you're facing.  If a guy needs to be brushed back, then brush him back.  Bonderman didn't hit anyone.  It was just some inside pitches.  Retaliation for that would merely given a gift of some intentional balls or HBP to Detroit.  That wouldn't have helped us.  Plus, it might have led to a bench clearing brawl, giving rise to suspensions and possible injury.

Finally..Buddy Bell manages like he's trying not to lose instead of trying to win.  There's a fine line in there, but bringing the infield in in the first innning I think crosses the line.

Sometimes that's the right call.  Sometimes it isn't.  Tough call.  Depends on a lot of variables.  I would prefer him being more conservative than by taking a lot of risks.  I think the riskiness wouldn't give us any more wins and would just lead to more fans calling for his head.

Honestly though..anybody but Bob Boone...

This is my problem.  I wouldn't mind Boone getting the ax.  I don't love the guy.  He is just mediocre.  But I'm not excited about dumping him because I really doubt the replacement would be any better.  And I haven't heard anyone make a good case for any possible replacement.  I have no reason to believe Frank White would be any better.  He's just a friendlier face.  And, quite frankly, change for change's sake sounds like the kind of knee-jerk reaction that fans of losing teams always make.  I would prefer a more thoughtful choice.  I really think Bell is mediocre.  A change to "anyone but Buddy Bell" could easily land us someone worse than Bell.

Frankly, if we do change managers, I predict that the fans on this site would be calling the new guy a crappy manager within 3 weeks and would be calling for his removal within 2 months.  "Anybody but this guy!"

by NYRoyal on Apr 18, 2007 8:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

So.....
Guys like Tony LaRussa and Jim Leyland were born with MLB managerial experience? I can tell you that everyone has to start somewhere. If I'm an employer and my employee is screwing up and he's got a bad resume, I'm looking for other alternatives. If I see a guy who's had success at a slightly lesser position and who is very loyal to the company. It's a no brainer for me. Also, we could wait until the end of the season to hire somebody. Chalk this season up as a total loss and just wait for the Chiefs to start playing again. That is an option. I would rather get a guy in soon so that he could start evaluating what he has. Otherwise, we're 6-20 to start off 2008 and the team has the excuse, "Well, he's evaluating his talent."

by royaldaddy on Apr 18, 2007 9:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Typically they have more exp. than F. White
White was a first base coach for the Red Sox and Royals for a little while (the least important coaching position on any team).  And the managed in AA for three years.  Frank White really wants to manage somewhere.  He has gotten zero job offers in AAA or the majors.  That should tell you something.

It is very rare that someone that inexperienced gets a major league managing job.  If he weren't a former Royals great, he wouldn't even get consideration.  That should tell you something too.

by NYRoyal on Apr 18, 2007 9:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hmm
Well..I must start by saying that I'm disappointed that nobody commented on my "McRae phone-a-thon".  I thought that was pretty funny.

Anyway..to counterpoint.  I don't think Bonderman was head hunting, but we NEVER knock anyone down.  There is some advantages to making guys move their feet and it's not just a waste of a pitch/a ball.  It really is no different than throwing a fastball to set up a change.  However..a pitcher's job is to protect his teammates.  If three of your guys (especially your captain) get knocked down, you have to brush somebody of the plate.  That's baseball.  If you don't at least SHOW that you'll throw a little inside and knock some guys down, then your hitters are unprotected and I tell you..that's no good.  All the best pitchers do this..all of them.  Then you K them with a sweeping slider down and away.  That's called a strikeout.

The Standridge move..there's no arguement for it.  Buddy must have been high (we know his kid's got the best stuff) or was throwing darts at a line-up card when he even got him up to warm up.  It's more than a head scratcher.  That is totally an inept move, but I guess you are saying we should be used to it and stop complaining.

I think loyal2sdad makes a good point in his diary about the attitude that bringing the infield in so early in the game sets for the whole team.  I will not rehash that arguement here.

As far as other guys..my point is that anybody than Bob Boone would be better.  It would be very, very hard to be worse that Buddy Bell or Bob Boone.  Hell..let Marty have a shot.  I hear he's looking for a job.  Just hide your Hooter's waitresses!

And as far as Buddy being a players' manager.  I'm pretty sure that players' don't give a rats ass who their manager is if they win.  Winning cures all.  Buddy doesn't win.  He never has, so who's to think he ever will?

by Stook on Apr 19, 2007 1:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Stook...
you just didn't let me get here in time...the McRae phone-a-thon was perfect...but the "might/would" part was classic...I just want to reemphasize the whole ATTITUDE part of this Buddy Bell thing...I was talking with a scout about Josh Becket and why he is so good is that he throws inside hard early in the game and sets the tone so that no one can touch his fastball later...if JDLR did this it would make him better (same for a few others)...so then two days later Beckett drills Vladi on the hand and he hasn't played in 3 days...we can't wait for this to happen...I don't like to play completely nice ball when every one else is playing tough...I used to be kind of cool with Buddy, but then obvious reasons led me to snap (really I just wanted to see how many possible errors I could count...oh and to beat a dead horse)
  1.  infield in in first (multiple occurences)
  2.  the Standridge thing (soon to be multiple occurences)
  3.  plays Marty ball by pulling sacrifices early (trying to "not lose")
  4.  shuffles lineups SOMETIMES rediculously (Grudz third and so on...I really don't think this one matters a lot)
  5.  Gordon at SS (if he can play it then make him our everyday SS, but geez don't put him there with his already fragileness in the field when TPJ is not hurt, put anyone at second before Gordon at SS, but still if he has had practice there maybe it was a decent move...but it did put LaRue at third...I think this move was just Buddy not having a plan if two 2nd basemen went down...plus he said that Grudz was ready for that game before the game to come off of bench...but maybe this was a ploy or maybe he didn't care because we were already behind several runs...if it was the latter I am concerned)
  6.  Huber
  7.  Post game talk (whining and excuses)
  8.  non motivated players
  9.  has never won
  10. I just don't feel like he knows what he's doing...I just feel it by watching the tone of the game on the tube and watching and listening to his interviews...its just my personal feeling that he's a schlub
my choice on who would be better:
  1.  Frank White...has a hometown flair that just rings true
  2.  Girardi...I would sure like to see him succeed again like he did last year...hardnosed and bullheaded when he knows he's right and just gets the job done
  3.  Bowa/Showwalter...just for tickets and just to see them blow up all the time...I love Pinellaesque passion
...but I kinda want Buddy to stay for a while because I actually think this team has enough talent to win 80 games, and him staying would mean that we are actually winning games NOW...its just that this division is INSANELY tough...the Tigers are just scary with that pitching...and the Twins and WhiteSox are still 2 of the top, say, 8 clubs in the majors (even though I still think the WSox will fall on their faces soon)...and the Indians could be a top 10 club soon...just a scary good division
Buy the ticket, take the ride.

by PhattStairs on Apr 19, 2007 5:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Hmm
There is some advantages to making guys move their feet and it's not just a waste of a pitch/a ball.  It really is no different than throwing a fastball to set up a change.

It can be useful in some situations.  It can also be detrimental to give away a ball like that.  It's not like this is a necessary part of good pitching.  I watched all of Buehrle's no-hitter last night and never knocked anyone down.  Sometimes a batter crowds the plate and you have to move him back.  Royals pitchers do that.  You don't have to knock a guy down to move him back.

However..a pitcher's job is to protect his teammates.

Yes, but just because a player on your team got brushed back, doesn't mean that you should retaliate.  Retaliate for intentional HBP's.  Don't waste balls and potential HBP's on brush-back pitches.

I think loyal2sdad makes a good point in his diary about the attitude that bringing the infield in so early in the game sets for the whole team.  I will not rehash that arguement here.

The attitude that this gives the team is merely speculation.  I think it is guessing to say that this leads the players to believe that their manager thinks they can't/won't hit during the game.  It is a common strategy.  Various managers use it at various times.  It happens.  I don't think that gets in players' heads.  But we really don't know.

As far as other guys..my point is that anybody than Bob Boone would be better.  It would be very, very hard to be worse that Buddy Bell or Bob Boone.

I don't think that's right.  You could do far worse.  There are managers and potential managers who would use far more smallball.  Managers who do far worse at handling a pitching staff.  Managers who put the lowest OBP guys at the top of the the lineup just because they have speed.  One such manager is Ozzie Guillen.

by NYRoyal on Apr 19, 2007 5:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think I've made my points
So need to rehash them.  Your example doesn't make any sense because..surprise, surprise..Ozzie Guillen has won.  Check that..Ozzie Guillen WINS.  "Winning is like better than losing." (or something to that effect).

by Stook on Apr 19, 2007 8:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually sorry..one more point
What is the difference than intentionally throwing a ball to set up another pitch to intentionally throwing a ball inside to knock a guy off the plate?  

The answer..nothing.  Both set up other pitches.  Both give the batter something else to think about.  Both make the pitcher more effective.  

One, however, protects your players.  

by Stook on Apr 20, 2007 12:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

One point of contention
And it's about the lineup switches. It has been established that a change in a lineup will have very little effect over the course of a year. I think it's likely, however, that there is some added value in consistency and everyone on the team knowing basically what to expect day-to-day.

The most obvious example is the failure of the "bullpen by committee" model. I remember reading a lot of quotes from relief pitchers that said they prefer having a defined role. Whether their preference translates into better results, I don't know, but I would guess that it does.

by Moose Tacos on Apr 18, 2007 7:22 PM EDT   0 recs

Are there any other
Royal greats that come to mind for Managing spots?  is it better to bring someone from inhouse or a new perspective from outside?  
The first thing I know about someone in a KC hat is that they're loyal.

by grantfunk on Apr 18, 2007 11:36 PM EDT   0 recs

Out of the organization
Do we really want to promote people that have been part of the losingest organization of the last 15 years? That strikes me as silly.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Apr 19, 2007 11:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Just to reiterate
I'm not sure I have much new to add here, but let me first present a few reasons that Bell should be fired as examples of general problems:
  1. The Huber thing last year. Illustrates his utter lack of understanding of both what the franchise's current priorities should be (young player development, which he also doesn't understand or care for), not to mention player quality (it's hard to believe that Huber would have been that much whose than Dougie Alphabet).
  2. Repeatedly comments to the effect that Angel Berroa is good, beyond the need to boost Berroa's confidence. If Bell even believed this a little bit, he is not qualified to work in baseball.
  3. Rickey Bell
  4. Inability to get German regular playing time, even when he's one of the better hitters on the team.
  5. Still alternating Buck and LaRue. What's 1000+ points of OPS compared to all that "veteran leadership"? (Especially when Buck is on  my fantasy team).
However, I'm not sure they sure fire him right away, unless he starts destroying young players a la Huber last year. Then he should be out as soon as tasteful given his job-saving cancer last year (sorry if that's tasteless, but I think there's a grain of truth there). For one thing, before they hire a decent manager, they're going to fire at least one, and maybe two, before contending. So why get stuck paying Bell for doing nothing (insert joke here)? If you do fire him, just make one of the coaches the interim manager. But if they make another rushed, stupid hire like they did with Bell midseason, that's just going to end up badly, too.

But do fire him. Maybe either at the end of this season or sometime next season, on the brink of things starting to improve. If it's on the earlier end, maybe try Frank White. If he sucks, he'll be cheap to get rid of. But really make a push for someone known to be good once things are on the uptick. I liked the Bobby V suggestions from a couple years back. That would bring interest, and, for all his flaws, he seems to be pretty good with young guys. But do something more aggressive like that. Wasn't there talk about Terry Pendleton? Someone from the As organization? Joe Girardi might be good, too, if you can grab him before Torre retires. I know he wasn't perfect in Florida, but he does have experience with young players and jerkoff owners.

And for God's sake, NOT DUSTY BAKER, unless you want to see what gives out first, Greinke's arm or his soul(and I say that as a Greinke fan).

by devil_fingers on Apr 19, 2007 12:17 AM EDT   0 recs

I agree about the health problem thing
It has to make it hard to can him. You'll look like an ass if you cut him loose too soon. Good call on that.

by royaldaddy on Apr 19, 2007 12:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Buddy will be here all year
For two reasons really.  Firstly, there aren't that many clearly better choices available right now and the ones that have been mentioned are probably better off waiting till the offseason to see what other jobs open up before committing to the Royals.  Pendelton and Girardi will have multiple requests for interviews in this offseason (if they're interested) and smoe if not all of those will be better choices that our boys in blue.  GMDM is going to have to pull out all the stops to attract a really top tier managers much like he did with Gil Meche.  Secondly, GMDM comes from that Atlanta system of sticking with a manager and rotating players around them.  Bobby Cox has beenin Atlanta for how long now and they show no signs of getting rid of him no matter how the team does.  I really think GMDM has thoughts of setting the Royals up as a little Atlanta with it's stability and class.

That said, BB can't be gone soon enough for me.  The losing isn't what bothers me as much as the roll over and play dead attitude that he has displayed his entire stint here in KC.  Everything from hs line-up cards to his pitching selections to his demeanor in the dugout screams of a guy who has given up and is just there collecting a paycheck.  Look at the Detroit and Boston series as examples.  Both Detroit and Boston marched out the same line-ups every game, used the same relievers in big time situations, and played the games to win not to protect anyone's ego.  How many times did we see Joel Zumaya(sp?) in a big spot against the Tigers?  How often did we see Manny or Ortiz riding the pine?  When we have a chance to win some series what does BB do?  Throw out the let's just get out of here healthy line-up and bring Standridge out of the pen instead of using Soira or Gobble.  The worst thing that a competitive sports team can do is not try to win.  Winning and losing are both habits and, in my opinion, BB has bred a losing habit on this team that someone needs to come in and get the attitude reversed.  There is just to much talent on this team for them to be looking this bad and that's a direct reflection on the leadership.

by EricConley on Apr 19, 2007 8:31 AM EDT   0 recs

Good post NYRoyal
I agree that firing Bell, Mike Barnett, or anyone in the coaching staff would simply be rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

I don't like Buddy and thinks he makes silly moves, but there isn't a manager out there who doesn't make baffling moves from time to time. Truth is, its the talent that wins or loses games. Managers make very little difference.

That being said, if we were to hire a new manager, I want someone from a winning organization. I don't want to promote Frank simply because he's a fan favorite, or promote anyone else simply because they're a loyal foot soldier in the losingest organization in all of baseball.

Some people bring up Buck Showalter, but Buck had a losing record in Texas and has only won with large payrolls in New York and Arizona.

Instead of promoting someone who has been part of the losing stench, or hiring a retread who was fired somewhere else, why don't we instead try to hire an assistant/minor league manager with a successful organization that has turned out young talent? This happens in the NFL all the time - teams don't recycle coaches with losing records, they hire assistants from winning organizations. I'm going around trying to get info on other managers, but here's a list I've compiled of possible candidates:

Terry Pendleton, Braves hitting coach
-Former Royal, has been hitting coach for five years, last year Braves led the NL in homers and were 2nd in runs scored, altered Andruw Jones batting stance who went on to a huge 2005 season, according to some Braves fans, he does take a "swing away" philosophy
Joel Skinner, Indians Third Base coach
-Seventh season on Indians coaching staff, was manager on an interim basis following Charlie Manuel's firing finishing 35-40 in 2002, had a 448-333 record as a minor league manager for six seasons reaching the playoffs five times,
John Farrell, Red Sox pitching coach
-First season as coach, spent six years in player development for the Indians, instrumental in the development of such pitchers as Fernando Cabrera, Jason Davis, Jeremy Guthrie, Edward Mujica, Rafael Perez, and Jeremy Sowers, spent five years as an assistant coach at Oklahoma State
Scott Ullger, Twins Third Base coach
-Has spent the last decade on the Twins coaching staff, has minor league managerial experience, made the playoffs in five of seven minor league seasons
Tony DeFrancesco, A's minor league manager
-Currently managing AAA Sacramento, has spent 13 seasons as a manager in the A's system, has an overall record of 851-771, has won two PCL championships in the last five years, numerous A's players have played under him.
Trey Hillman, Nippon Ham Fighters manager (Japan)
-Turned a 5th place Japanese club into Japan League champions, managed the Yankees AAA affiliate from 2000-2001, likes to play for the big inning, but has learned to play small ball in Japan, formerly in the Rangers player development

We need to totally revamp the personnel in this organization. We began that by hiring a GM from a winning organization, why not hire a manager from a winning organization?

Thoughts? Any other names you'd like to throw out there?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Apr 19, 2007 11:38 AM EDT   0 recs

Sad state of affairs
Creativity is dead inside the game of baseball. In a counter-revolutionary, old-school regime like Moore's, the intellectual environment will be even more arid.

As many point out, 90% of managers are exactly the same, they bunt at the same times, they make the same tired bullpen decisions, and a young player needs to hit .500 in Spring Training to supplant a known commodity.

Basically the only marginal differences are in the managing of the pitching staff.

I think Bell's a player's manager, so the Royals might see a short-term gain from bringing in a tough-guy. But thats it.

Buddy Bell isn't a good manager and he does not give the team any competitive advantage, and thats the way everyone likes it.

by DyeFan187 on Apr 19, 2007 12:00 PM EDT   0 recs

Who is the innovator you want as manager?
If Buddy Bell is just like the vast majority of managers (and he is), then who is the innovator who thinks outside the box who you would like to manage the Royals?

I would love have the Royals hire a guy who almost never calls for a bunt, discourages base stealing except for in the highest percentage situations and who uses actual performance on the field when determining matchups instead of going by traditional baseball rules of thumb.  But, those guys are few and far between.

by NYRoyal on Apr 19, 2007 12:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thats really my point
its sorta a depressing argument, because the next guy will ultimately, strategically, share 90% of Bell's DNA

i think the most productive thng would just be playing the player's coach/hardass duality

by DyeFan187 on Apr 19, 2007 12:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agree with you NYRoyal
I went to the KC/Baltimore game on Saturday night.   Although the Royals were able to lose in spectacular fashion via the Grand Salami by a player who doesn't hit home runs, Bell's moves were reasonable and explainable.

Pulling Perez in the sixth was correct.  He had begun to labor in the fifth, and after placing two people on base in the sixth, the right call was the bullpen.

It was not Bell's fault that a trio of Royals refused to catch a ball that should have been caught.  Although it was but one out, that out would have allowed an open base, so that when Peralta DID go 3-1 on Gomez, he could afford to walk him without penalty.

It sucks that Peralta threw a softie and I got to watch a bunch of Os fans flap their wings as Gomez rounded the bases, but I don't blame Bell.  And frankly, with the status of our bullpen, I don't blame him if he is slow to pull the trigger on starters in the future.

A better factor to blame:  Why are four Royals batting sub .150 ?  That's right, I saw back to back Royals (Gordon/Shealy) come to bat with UNDER .100 averages.  Although they have improved slightly, you cannot have such anemic production and expect to win games.

by CaptainDT on Apr 19, 2007 1:45 PM EDT   0 recs

I don't think
any of us are arguing that we would be contendors here.  But I tell you one or two games better than we are would sure make us feel a little better.

by Stook on Apr 19, 2007 2:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I am a firm believer...
...in the little things that the Royals do NOT do that leads to losses.  The difference of another game or two is the difference in catching a fly ball and eliminating the 'fourth' out, or throwing out a runner that steals.  It's putting a ball in play instead of a strike out.

I'll tell you what I saw in Baltimore too - lazy Baltimore runners that never went back to first base because our catcher was too lazy to snap throw it to first.  They took a lead and kept it.  

I saw DeJesus hit a grounder to short and he lollygagged for two steps thinking it was an automatic double-play ball. Then he realized that the shortstop had bobbled it for half a second - but don't worry, DeJesus's delay ensured a successful double-play when he was just beaten by the throw to first.   Way to hustle, DDJ.

I can point out a number of little things that I see the Royals do to make sure they don't win at all.  The one or two games difference you ask for is the one or two little things a game the Royals don't do.

by CaptainDT on Apr 19, 2007 2:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But
By the time a guy reaches the big leagues, can a manager really change that?

I think Rob Neyer had a good column a few years ago suggesting that maybe players on bad teams don't do the little things because they are bad players. We get mad that Emil Brown can't run the bases well, and blame the manager for not stressing that with him, but maybe Emil is just a poor baserunner.

Little things can make the difference in one game, but I tend to think the reason players on bad teams don't do the little things is because they are bad players, not because their manager did or did not manage them well.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Apr 19, 2007 2:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

he better be able to
change that. Otherwise, he's not going to be around long. The manager is the leader of the team. You don't hustle, you don't play. Knowing the game is great, but you have to be able to be a disciplinarian as well. Not having that skill cost Tony Pena his job (it was a factor at least). The longer Buddy stays, the longer the rebuilding process takes. These guys are developing a "woe is us" attitude and it's not helping anybody.

by royaldaddy on Apr 19, 2007 2:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree...
...that a manager may not change poor habits.  I am saying that blaming Buddy for DeJesus' turtle-esque trot to first isn't quite right.  

Rather, I am saying that the Royals lose games partly because they just don't execute the little things - or, they execute them with far less success than other players.  

by CaptainDT on Apr 19, 2007 2:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hmm
Well...I can't comment  on that first hand account on Dejesus.  However..that would be the FIRST time I've ever heard about him not hustling.  If others have seen this, then I guess he's changing as a player.  Dejesus is good because he gets the most of his game every play.  If he isn't doing that anymore than we should get rid of him while he has value.

As a matter of fact..that is the ONE area that I will give some credit to Bell..the guys do seem to play hard for him.

Bell day in day out does NOT put the his best players in the best position for HIS TEAM TO WIN.  If what you said is true about DJ, then you should have taken him out immediately and put someone in there that wants to play.  That's a big part of executing the little things..having your best players in there to try.  And it's also knowing your players abilities.  

by Stook on Apr 19, 2007 5:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll keep it simple
I'm a little late and there have already been a lot of arguments made, so I'll keep it simple.

Just look at all of the valid arguments against Bell, and then consider the lack of any arguments for him.  

There are a TON of things that Bell does that aren't just questionable (bringing in a RP, bunting here, not stealing there...), but are absurdly ignorant and stupid.  Tie that with the fact that every time he opens his mouth, the most absurd comments spew forth.

He's an idiot that has done many things beyond poorly, and has done nothing well.  It does get better than that.

by bfos7215 on Apr 19, 2007 3:50 PM EDT   0 recs

Frank White?
Why does anyone think he'd be a good manager? I read on here "he's a fan favorite" "why not?" "bring back some nostalgia". Excuse me, but why is that a reason to make him manager of this team? Is it just "Anybody but Buddy"? Why not just cut costs and make Mike Sweeney manager then? I don't really see what makes Frank White qualified to be manager. He was a mediocre minor league manager for three seasons. He has never distinguished himself as a MLB coach or minor league manager. He has been associated with one of the losingest franchises in all of baseball for the last couple years. So why promote from within if the organization is broken? I really don't get it.

I know Frank is a popular player and all, but I don't get the attitude that just anyone should be our next manager. We should get someone qualified, who has done a good job in player development, from a winning organization. Let's not just promote a guy because he's stuck around, is popular with fans and is a nice guy. That's what keeps last place teams in last place.

And please don't think I hate Frank. I know I had a post that said he was overrated as a player, but that doesn't erase the fact I think he was a very good player, integral to a number of playoff teams, and easily the best fielder in Royals history and one of the finest fielding 2B in MLB history.

I just don't think he's qualified to be manager, that's all.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Apr 19, 2007 5:30 PM EDT   0 recs

Yes...
In my mind, it is anyone but Buddy.  I'm in favor of a change in manager for the same reason that we try out new rookies at positions.  If we assume that Buddy is not our future (which if you don't believe, then my argument doesn't hold...and I'm fine with that), I think we should explore new options and just try them out.  This is a "rebuilding" year and thus I don't see any harm in a change.  I'd be fine with Sweeney too.  

I don't really think the manager position has a large amount of influence, but if it has any...then I think taking a chance might be beneficial.  

"I DARE you to make less sense."

by dejackso on Apr 19, 2007 5:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This is going to sound trite and a little too
simplistic, but you did ask for opinions.

For me, the problem with Bell is more etherial than anything else. Yes, as far as Xs and Os, I may tend to agree he's a run of the mill mediocre manager at best and a poor one at worst.

However, my problem with him is he just emits an air of "loser." It's hard to articulate what I mean and I'm sure I'll be mocked with things like, "What he smells like a loser, he sweats loser." No, of course not, but nonetheless there's just something about him, the way he acts, the way he carries himself, the way he is around the team and others. It just reaks of someone who's just not a winner.

My best example, since I'm a USC alumni, would be the difference between Paul Hackett and Pete Carroll. Paul Hackett had all the tangibles you could want from a successful coach. He studied under the right people (Walsh, John Robinson, etc.), he was an offensive guru, and he had experience. But, when you saw him speak, or interact, or manage a practice, you could just tell. The guy was a loser. He would never manage a successful team at USC (or the Chiefs, Pittsburgh, NY Jets, etc.). He had all the talent he needed at USC but he was just a loser, for want of a better explanatory phrase or word.

Carroll, from the moment he came in was different. Yes, he struggled mightily at the NFL level but you got the sense after observing him with the players, the fans, and the media that he wasn't a loser like Hackett. There was just a difference to him. I have some friends inside the program and I would frequently talk to them about the team in the difficult first year Carroll coached them. They said, the most difficult thing the coaches would indicate about that year was turning around an established "culture of losing." They used that term often. They players and program had grown to accustomed to losing, the majority of which it was implied was due to the former coaching staff, namely Paul Hackett. You could see fits and starts in that first year of breaking out of the losing, but it was subtle. Like they were breaking out of the chains of the losing mentality and believing in their ability to win.

Back to Bell, under him it seems this team is stil shackled. The demoralizing late inning losses, the blowouts, the one run losses. It's a pattern that's gone on for awhle.

In Detroit, they had to get rid of a mediocre manager in Trammell to shake free of the losing ways. And while, I agree with some of your points about Bell being a decent manager when it comes to Xs and Os, etc., it's this other side of the coin which leads me to believe, he's not the one to lead the Royals out of the blanket of losing from which they reside. I believe the talent is there to be mediocre at the very least, but I don't think Bell is the guy to do it.

As for who would be better. I really don't know enough about the possible candidates to speak authoritatively about it. That doesn't, however, preclude me from being able to sense that the current guy isn't getting the job done. Which he clearly is not.

by balto on Apr 19, 2007 5:40 PM EDT   0 recs

Bad vibes?
For me, the problem with Bell is more etherial than anything else.
However, my problem with him is he just emits an air of "loser."

Etherial problem?  An air of loser?  I don't know what any of that means.  It sounds like you just get a bad vibe off of him and that isn't a very powerful argument for me.

Back to Bell, under him it seems this team is stil shackled. The demoralizing late inning losses, the blowouts, the one run losses. It's a pattern that's gone on for awhle.

I wish I could blame those losses on Bell.  However, his teams haven't been very talented.  Losses usually mount up on untalented teams.

I'm willing to make a change.  But I would like someone to make a good argument for a particular change, not just any change in the hopes that it will change the team's "vibe".

by NYRoyal on Apr 19, 2007 6:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

fire him
joe girardi took a young marlins team in a poor national league and made them into something resembling a ball team by instituting class all the way.  he, like bell, is hard-nosed and old fashioned.  the big pluses to him over bell are his age, class, and ability to handle younger players.  buddy is older, has some class but not as much as girardi, and has proven overly loyal to older players.  my biggest gripe w/ bell has always been his track record.  his moves to guys like standridge and dohmann in tied games make no sense, even w/ teams like the royals.  u still manage to win the game even if u suck.  buddy seems to disagree... fire him.
pat

by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Apr 19, 2007 11:49 PM EDT   0 recs

Gee, I would say the concensus is to fire Buddo
and soon.  Then again I live in Iowa and not in the Big Apple so what do I know.

by grudz69 on Apr 19, 2007 11:59 PM EDT   0 recs

Ok now
I agree with you Grudz on firing Bell.  I think NYRoyal is just passionate about his opinions.  I've seen him defend his opinions, but not take any personal shots.  And any Royals fan..anywhere...is alright by me.  Even in Iowa..just kidding. Go Royals!  If all else..We love the Royals!

by Stook on Apr 20, 2007 12:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Grudz
I'm adopted and have never met my biological parents. Were you ever around the Chillicothe, Missouri area in 1980? Just wondering.

by royaldaddy on Apr 20, 2007 12:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh god....my wife would have a stroke...
I can honestly say that I have never been to or around that area of Mo.  Although trading any of my kids is out of the question, I would love to have just one  that had your love for the game.  Thanks for asking, I am honored just by the inference.

by grudz69 on Apr 20, 2007 1:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Just wondering
the thinking patterns are quite similar. Unless you're 6'7" with red hair(I do know that muc