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8.5 Angles to the I-70 Series

(To get us in the interleague mood, a repost from last year.)

 

The annual I-70 Series between the Royals and Cardinals is one of the more natural interleague matchups, standing somewhere in the second tier along with Astros-Rangers, Reds-Indians and Nationals-Orioles, but behind the various "cross-town" matchups. Because the Royals have become so utterly irrelevant outside the Kansas City metropolitan area and a few cities in Kansas, the series isn't quite as intense as it could be. Essentially, its been a Cardinal coronation and a display of Royal weakness since its inception, with the Cards just starting to come out of the Joe Torre Era wilderness when the gimmick began in 1997. Of course, Royals-Cardinals has the rare distinction - shared only with Yankees-Mets and A's-Giants - of existing as an actual World Series matchup, and thanks to the memorable nature of that 1985 Series, it lends the battle for I-70 a little extra flair. Still, MLB has also been unsure as to exactly handle the series as well, occasionally reducing it to a mere three games, or, in this year's case, curiously playing both legs of the battle on non-weekends. Odd.

Without further preface, here are 8.5 Angles to the I-70 Series, a humble compendium of the issues and arguments floating around the fan discourse when the Blue and Red clash.

 

.5) It's Not a Rivalry:  According to many Cardinals fans, the I-70 series isn't a rivalry and it certainly isn't important. Of course, as many poets have reminded us, to be totally ignored is a fate crueler than being rebuffed, and so this calm assertion of indifference is actually a profound slam. The Cardinals are worried about winning championships, so the argument goes, and if the pesky little Royals want to get all excited about a chance to play the Redbirds, then well, that simply betrays their lower order of existence. A related argument maintains that the Cubs are the Cardinals truest, most bitter rival. I think there's a bit of truth to both claims. However, it's only natural that Royals fans would care about the series more given their minority and underdog status. On the other hand, if Cardinals fans truly didn't care then they wouldn't take such glee in flocking to the K each summer in order to raise hell/remind us how rabid they are.

1.5) Size Matters: One of the odder recurring topics of debate between Royals and Cardinals fans is the relative size of each city. While no one has ever established why this is supposed to be important, I've seen it debated on email lists, message boards, blogs and in person. Not sure what the prize is for being a bigger city, but... alas. Not only is it a strange topic, but a complicated one, given that both cities are highly suburbanized and spread into another state. According to the US Census, the 2005 population of KC (just Missouri) is 444,965, while St. Louis is around 347,181. However, St. Louis claims a larger overall metro area, clocking in at around 2.7 million compared to Kansas City's 1.8. Looking at things a slightly different way, according to Nate Silver's research both the "attendance sphere" (3.0 versus 1.9 million) and the wider TV/Media market data (7.5 versus 4.1 million) suggest the Cardinals lay claim to a much larger "home" population base. In the ways most people think about things, St. Louis is a bigger city. An interesting side bet is the battle between the Kansas side of the KC metro and the Illinois side of St. Louis. The KC matter is straightforward, Johnson County, Kansas is home to 516,731 people (largest county in the state), with Wyandotte County (KCK, or "the Dotte") clocking in at 155,509. It's a bit more complicated for the Illinois side of St. Louis, since its roughly split by two counties: Madison (265,303) and St. Clair (260,919). If it helps anyone, Kansas City, Kansas has a population of 144,210, while East St. Louis, Illinois is only home to 29,843.  

Has there ever been a show of this quality set in St. Louis?

2.5) Springfield with More Crime: The population debate quickly segues into a discussion of the relative merits of each city. St. Louis has the Arch and the River, while KC is the City of Boulevards and/or Fountains. Whatever the merits of the Arch, the Mississippi River occupied a central place in the American imagination from the Presidencies of Jefferson through Eisenhower and cannot be seriously rivalled by the nevertheless underrated Missouri.  Usually, the matter of city worth settles into a familiar pattern. According to one side, Kansas City is bland and uncultured (or hicks and white trash, if you will) while St. Louis is more cultured and sophisticated. Interestingly, Kansas City supporters often cede a certain degree of the culture argument, but respond that St. Louis is corrupt, decaying and dangerous. The words "murder capital" have been used more than once. Accurate crime statistics are hard to come by and are made complicated by the fact that "St. Louis" as a larger idea exists across a wide range of city, county and state designations. Subtextually, St. Louis is thought of as a city in the Detroit/Cleveland/Pittsburgh mode: a 19th century wonder dying a slow death in a different economy. Interestingly, St. Louis is usually mentioned as an example of "white flight", while KC is chided as another sprawling freeway city (only one of the non-growing, non-Sun Belt variety). From above, there isn't much difference between these two characterizations, save that one veers towards an implied racial critique, while another suggests environmental damage. A certain strain of Kansas Citians seem to think St. Louis is some kind of liberal hellhole, while the western side of the state is closer to Bible Belt values. How the fact that the estimable series Mama's Family was set in a KC suburb effects this argument is anyone's guess. Occasionally, the culture/quality of life debate will also slide into irresolvable debates about which place has better restaurants or attractive women. One thing is certain, Kansas City has much less traffic.

Bo Versus Bo

3.5) The Best Fans in Baseball: Cardinals fans are incessantly praised as one of the most loyal, supportive, and intelligent fanbases in the game. You can throw "classy" in there as well. Even as a Royals fan, I'm willing to grant them loyalty and dedication - just look at the attendance and merchandise figures - and without a bit of qualification either. The question of fanbase intelligence is another matter however since I wholeheartedly reject what the mainstream sports media defines as intelligent baseball. Going gonzo over a weak grounder to second in the fourth inning because it "moves the runner over" is not a supreme sign of intelligence, nor is a love affair with sacrifice bunting or an executed hit and run. Moreover, it hasn't been my experience that Cards fans are actually more attuned to these supposed subtleties than any other fanbase. Its ignorant (and arrogant) to suppose that somewhere - probably in Texas I guess - theres a group of fans who only cheer strikeouts and home runs, while you, and only you, knowingly get off on bunts and double switches. Its essentially the same everywhere, and you could make the case that a smarter group of fans is probably those schmucks watching the Nationals, Devil Rays or (cough) Royals, since there isn't a very large "its cool to be at the game" vibe amongst non-baseball fans (i.e. females on dates) in those cities. Finally, whatever might be said of the mythical "average fan", the Royals can claim Bill James, Rob Neyer, Joe Posnanski and Rany Jazayerli as their own. Certainly some baseball brains there.

4.5) Tangled up in Powder Blue: In the minds of Royals fans the powder blue road uniforms of yesteryear remain a strong part of the team's platonic ideal, even if year after year the team keeps them in the closet. Although more underground, there also exists a similar movement in St. Louis, especially amongst fans in their thirties. From  1976 to 1984 the Cards sported baby/powder blue road uniforms, despite the fact that blue had absolutely nothing to do with their color scheme. Yet weirdly enough, it seemed both logical and visually appealing.

5.5) Whitey Herzog: The White Rat made his name in Kansas City, going 410-304 with the Royals from 1975-1979, winning the AL West three consecutive years. Three times during Whitey's reign the Royals stole over 200 bases as a team with team triple totals often veering quite close to the number of homers. Herzog then moved east to St. Louis, going 822-728 with the Cardinals between 1980-1990. Of course, the Royals faced their old manager in the 1985 World Series, which fans of both teams may slightly recall. While the real key was fantastic pitching, the emphasis on the speed game was certainly entertaining in its own way. Whiteyball wouldn't make much sense given the dimensions and natural grass at today's Busch or K, (to say nothing of the 2000s run environment) but the game is more tasteless and boring without someone making a full commitment to it.

6.5)  Beyond I-70: Sure, you can drive from St. Louis to Kansas City on I-70. But both teams claim fans across a wide range of territory, especially the Cardinals (just ask them). While the Royals control Kansas and the civilized outposts of Nebraska, the Cardinals are quite strong throughout the "Mid-South", with footholds in Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma and Southern Illinois. Iowa is floating around there as a weak secondary market to the Cards as well. If the Royals hadn't spent the last decade (and more) being criminally awful, Royals-Cards might have ended up as a massive battle for Midwestern supremacy. Instead, only about 10-20 counties in Missouri are truly battleground areas, as the Royals have been almost totally routed along the southern front, i.e. the Oklahoma and Arkansas area. In the same study by Nate Silver referenced above, the Cardinals have claimed two-thirds of Missouri as well, giving the Royals the smallest true market of any Major League club. Thanks to the Cardinal strength in the westerly cities of Springfield and Joplin, you'd be hard pressed to find a large-ish Missouri community outside the KC Metro that is loyal to the Royals, with the Cardinals claiming Columbia, Jefferson City, Springfield, Joplin, Cape Girardeau, Hannibal, Rolla and on and on...

7.5) Royals Fans Are _ Cardinals Fans Are _: Someone living in Boston, Atlanta or San Diego would be pretty shocked to here the elaborate stereotypes each side has managed to develop about one another. Admittedly, most of this seems to be coming from the KC side, since, as mentioned above, many Cardinals fans adopt a "we don't care" attitude towards the entire enterprise. Moreover, it is possible that many Cardinals fans in Illinois, Tennessee and Arkansas have never seen a living Royals fan anyway, making it hard to generalize about them. Here at Royals Review the rundown of Card-Fan Stereotypes painted the enemy as old (living in the past) guy in a RV wearing a too-tight red t-shirt. The typical Card-Fan has a too fond memory of Jack Buck (who, we should always remember, begat a son who now tortures us during the MLB and NFL seasons) and an inflated sense of Cardinal greatness. He's also enamored with all things "small ball" and feels that his love is also a Gnostic wisdom of sorts, showing just how much he knows about the game (see above). A love of small ball also facilitates an ability to cherish Bo Hart, Joe McEwing and Mike Matheny. Interesting, younger Royals fans also have a side-stereotype for younger Cards fans: a kind of preppy frat guy with red polos and or popped collars. Either way, they're relentlessly bragging about their team and slagging off on all things Royal. The stereotypical Royals fan is a less-developed concept, although he would certainly have less baseball "knowledge" than the denizens of the Red and White and would be viewed as something boorish, since we all know how "classy" St. Louis fans are. Beyond that, probably the best line afforded the other side would be something like, "The Typical Royals fan? Whats a Royals fan?"

Much like the 2006 Cards, the Royals of the late 70s and early 80s finally broke through to WS glory with one of their weaker teams.

8.5) 1985 and Denkinger: You know this, but... To lead off the 9th inning (the Cards led 1-0) of Game 6 of the 1985 World Series Don Denkinger called Jorge Orta safe at first. While a close play, the consensus was that Orta was out. Much like the supposed blunder of Bill Buckner, it's a gross simplification to say that the play "cost" anyone anything, but it certainly hurt. (The Buckner game was already tied when the ball went through his legs.) Still, whenever the '85 series comes up, Denkinger is usually topic A, although I think more thoughtful fans on both sides can acknowledge that "The Call" has been overblown, especially by a national media largely uninterested in Missouri squabbling and more interested in producing endless variations of "Biggest Heartbreaks/Controversies" countdown shows. On balance, 1985 stands as one of the better Fall Classics of the past 30 years, as many other things happened beyond Game 6. The Royals come back from 0-2 and 3-1 deficits (after losing the first two games at home). The Royals blew a 2-0 lead in the 9th inning of Game Two, but also stormed back to stave off elimination in Game Five, in St. Louis. And then theres the matter of Game 7, and on and on... Too many good players battled in that Series for it to be reduced to "The Call" or "Denkinger", but that's the world we live in. Nevertheless, as Viva El Birdos puts it, Denkinger's call lowered the Cardinals Win Expectancy from 90% to 68%, no small matter. After Balboni's single that WE% dropped to 46%, although Sundberg's bunt brought it back up to 61%. Well, we could go on and on, couldn't we. Lastly, 1985 didn't exactly bring out the best qualities in Whitey Herzog, who was still seething during his conciliatory phone call from Ronald Reagan.

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Battle For Mizzou
I prefer to remember the 1985 Series for John Tudor punching out a fan (mechanical, electric type) after Herzog pulled him. I think Candyjar had a pretty good meltdown at one point, too.

I grew up in KCK, the wasteland north of the river. My family lived from 1961 to 1968 in a flat roofed duplex across from Paul Bunyan Burgers at 18th and Parallel. I say this to show I'm not unfamiliar with bad neighborhoods.

That said, years later, while living in Topeka, my friend and I decided to take a Memorial Day weekend tour. The first night, we got to St. Louis after dark and took a wrong turn on the interstate, winding up crossing the Mississippi unintentionally. I pulled off at the first exit on the Illinois side and found myself in what appeared to be a bombed out section of East St. Louis. Then the oil light flickered on; my first thought? I always wondered where I'd die, now it's just how.

Unlike Chevy Chase in "Vacation", I found my way back to the highway without asking for directions. The oil light went off and I made it to St. Genevieve before the oil pump went out.

KCK, which is pretty much Wyandotte county, could not compare to East St. Louis for sheer urban blight. No contest. I do remember visiting KCK in the middle 80's when there was yet another urban renewal project afoot (remember the bizarre disfigurement of downtown in the 70's?) I noticed signs at every entrance to the city limits saying "Welcome To The New Kansas City, Kansas". Nothing had been done, but the signs were the first step in the renewal process. Brilliant; I wondered what a stranger coming into the city would think; "If this is the new city, what the hell did the old one look like?"

Being a fan is irrational, but what is the alternative?

by philofthenorth on Jun 14, 2007 1:29 PM EDT   0 recs

east st louis is worse than KCK
no question about it

maybe its just a psychological thing, but it seems like e stl is harder to escape than KCK

I have Morgellons.

by DyeFan187 on Jun 14, 2007 1:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

KCK is just
a little on the poor side, nothing like the Mad Max feeling when you cross into Cahokia.

by Chris on Jun 14, 2007 5:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My dad
Grew up in Cahokia he said it wasnt a great place but he did fine there.It only got really bad there when the african-american schools basketball team came to town then there were huge fights.

by Calhoun on Jun 14, 2007 6:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the first exit in illinois

is home to such classics as pt’s sports cabaret and pops, a 24 hour bar that hosts van halen and rush tribute bands.

classy.

that said, i play golf in cahokia – it’s cheap.

by kcinstl on Jun 17, 2008 4:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Excellent novel on the relationship of
the two colossus of MO.  Since I live on the stamen of the lily of white Iowa, I can't comment on the bad parts of town.  But, I have been to the south side of Chitown and in the middle of Watts...so, I have the experience of thinking I am going to die HERE!!!

I am hoping that "beam me up scotty" will have his A game with him and that our bats will be a little more useful tonight than last.  

The women are going to a movie so the neighbor and I will be in front of his 61" big screen watching Buddy's eyes close when he falls asleep in the 4th.  Since I drank his scotch last night I stopped at the store and got him some of the good stuff.  As everyone said last night, I to hope that Gordo has turned one of the many corners in his career and will do well tonight.  

Go Blue...

by grudz69 on Jun 14, 2007 2:55 PM EDT   0 recs

lowered their win expectancy?
They never stop reaching do they? Get over it Saint Lou! The best team stepped up in Game 7!!

by royaldaddy on Jun 14, 2007 3:15 PM EDT   0 recs

Come on
Get over it? We got over it last year after WINNING THE WORLD SERIES. KC fans are the ones constantly bringing it up.

You all, on the other hand, haven't seen a playoff game since that night in '85. Karma's a bitch sometimes.

by Doberman On The Diamond on Jun 14, 2007 4:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

now see that's just sad.
you admitted you didn't get over it until the Cards won the series 22 years later. I feel sorry for that attitude.  Chances in 87 & 02 and NOW you're over it.  Shame to waste a good life like that.

by David Howards Legacy on Jun 14, 2007 4:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ok nancyboy
Let me lay this little bit of knowledge on you. The Royals have a .5something winning percentage against the NL the past three years. That translates to 90-72. 90-72 is good enough to win the weak-ass NL Central anytime. You caught lightening in a bottle and got lucky. So, keep listening to the bullshit that dumbass Joe Buck keeps feeding you and suck down some more Bud Selects (pussy) while your team flushes down the toilet. By the way, when does your savior Rick Ankiel make his arrival? Yeah, he's going to be the next Mickey Mantle, right? Please, dude. Aside from Colby Rasmus, you've got dick in your farm system. You've got buttloads of cash wrapped up in a bunch of injury-plagued old men. Funny how you see the same people on the way down that you saw on the way up, huh?

by royaldaddy on Jun 15, 2007 6:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

btw
Great read RR! Keep 'em coming.

by royaldaddy on Jun 14, 2007 3:21 PM EDT   0 recs

Wow, there aren't words for how good this is
well, maybe there are, but honestly I enjoyed every line and left me dying for more. True sign of literary genius, thank you.

Sorry Royals fans, I have to give the redbirds this. I think that logo is the coolest in sports, and the way it contrasted with their version of the blue was a stunning visual. I like our powder blues but IMO they pale in comparison. I also love the old striped socks. Simply my favorite uni all around.

The stereotype thing is hilarious with the completely incongruous old gas-price-obsessed RV guy and Wash U. prepster.

Finally, this rivalry and the awesome one between Texas A&M (Royals) and UT (Cards) exhibit an amazing symmetry in many ways.

by chukar on Jun 14, 2007 3:32 PM EDT   0 recs

By the way, was Mamas Family really
set in KC? It was completely unwatchable, right? Saw that it survived for 8 years, wow. I've only seen horrific glimpses.

by chukar on Jun 14, 2007 3:51 PM EDT   0 recs

raytown
I have Morgellons.

by DyeFan187 on Jun 14, 2007 5:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Whew
That explains it.  I didn't know that until now and was horrified.  

Even as children my sister and I were aware that it was one of the most brutal shows ever made.

by Pauli on Jun 14, 2007 8:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

it's worth noting
that jeff co in stl = raytown in kc.

for real.

The first thing I know about someone in a KC hat is that they're loyal.

by grantfunk on Jun 15, 2007 12:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yikes

ain’t that the truth

http://welcometojohnsonville.blogspot.com

by arthropodtodd on Jun 17, 2008 4:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Mama's Family

Last I knew, one of the cast members was a bartender in Warrensburg. He may have moved, though. I don’t remember much about the show because I never watched it, so I don’t know his character’s name.

by Stat Ninja on Jun 17, 2008 4:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, in today's environment you might want to
edit that last part. Maybe just a beatdown spree.

by chukar on Jun 14, 2007 3:54 PM EDT   0 recs

Well done until 7.5
When the cheap shots about St. Louis rolled in. Too bad. Ruined an otherwise great article. Having lived in both cities, I can only tell you my experiences with Royals fans has been obnoxious to say the least.

You claim STL is obsessed with east coast respect (the first time I've ever heard that accusation, by the way), but KC is absolutely obsessed with what STL does. I did't know this until I lived there and was shocked at the stuff coming out of people's mouth about STL from Kansas Citians. I had no idea KC was so full of strange hatred of STL. It's beyond weird.

by Doberman On The Diamond on Jun 14, 2007 4:30 PM EDT   0 recs

where are the cheap shots?
i think it was more just presenting what people usually say, not necessarily whats true
I have Morgellons.

by DyeFan187 on Jun 14, 2007 5:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't you mean
Merely presenting the truth?

Truth hurts man..truth hurts.

by Stook on Jun 14, 2007 6:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow, I didn't really believe much of that
card fan stereoype stuff until I saw this on the Dekinger link from their board:

"Darrell Porter, Jack Clark and more than likely Todd Worrell's concentration after that call was obviously off. That call broke up their concentration...Oh and another thing, commissioner Bud Selig even said that St.Louis is the crowning jewel of Major League Baseball and in 2003 Major League players named Cardinals fans the best out of all the other teams. St.Louis was also picked to be the best baseball city by numerous sports publications several years in a row. I've got facts on my side. How about you? "

by chukar on Jun 14, 2007 4:41 PM EDT   0 recs

if the royals started proclaiming they had...
the best fans in baseball constantly, in 20 years people would believe it
I have Morgellons.

by DyeFan187 on Jun 14, 2007 5:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Living in St. Louis
I have this conversation all the time:

Card Fan: How about those Redbirds?

Me: Don't care, I'm not a Cards fan.

CF: Oh...(Look of disgust creeps across face.  Seriously, you have to see it, its priceless)  Why not, you LIVE here?

Me: Oh yeah, would you be a Royals fan if you moved to KC?

CF: No...(befuddled look creeps across face) Why would I?

by frankwhitehof on Jun 14, 2007 4:53 PM EDT   0 recs

I want baseball tonight
meeeeh, probably will get nothing out here. that's okay, I'm not crushed. good read, RR. made me think about home.

by loyal2theroyals on Jun 14, 2007 5:44 PM EDT   0 recs

The Loop?
Is that what you're thinking of?

by Chris on Jun 14, 2007 5:45 PM EDT   0 recs

Great Job
That picture is from Columbia, no?

by Chris on Jun 14, 2007 5:54 PM EDT   0 recs

winning tonight would be huge
maybe we can start reclaiming Joplin

Springfield will always be cards though

I have Morgellons.

by DyeFan187 on Jun 14, 2007 6:20 PM EDT   0 recs

Springfield
Is now the largest suburb of Branson, which should be in Arkansas, which is home to the Travelers, thus making Springfield untouchable.
Being a fan is irrational, but what is the alternative?

by philofthenorth on Jun 14, 2007 7:46 PM EDT   0 recs

right, about that
screw arkansas, missouri should sell everything north of the missouri river to iowa, annex fayettville/rogers/bentonville and be the coolest state ever.

also, while branson is imploding around me here, springfield is quite it's own juggernaut.  any town with 4 AAAA high schools (and like 4 private schools) surrounded by 4 suburban AAAA high schools (willard, nixa, ozark, republic) is it's own problem.  and you used to see royals gear in the stores next to the cards stuff.  

this fertile land is in need of planting.  bring forth the seeds of blue loyalty!!!

(sorry, possibly a bit over the top.)

The first thing I know about someone in a KC hat is that they're loyal.

by grantfunk on Jun 15, 2007 12:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Doberman
You sir, are irrational.

Royals outscored Cardinals 28-13 over a 7 game stretch, and by any definition, that is pure domination.

The team that performed better in the post-season won in 85 (although the Cards were the better team in the regular season), and the reason they performed better was simple. The Royals, indisputably, were simply awesome on the mound for that ENTIRE series. Look up the stats - I believe the Cardinals set some kind of record for lowest batting average in a 7 game series, hitting somewhere in the mid 180s.

by loyal2s dad on Jun 15, 2007 10:55 AM EDT   0 recs

Just an FYI
The White Sox and Cubs did play in the World Series....in 1906.  I don't really know how relevant that is though

by Cubfanwesuck on Jun 15, 2007 11:25 AM EDT   0 recs

as carvey doing carson used to say
i did not know that
What hath Bell wrought?

by FireBell on Jun 15, 2007 12:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm loving the VeB cross over guys
and not to make this a big jack-each-other-off-fest, but awesome take RR.  freakin' defenitive.

i swear thats not a come on.

The first thing I know about someone in a KC hat is that they're loyal.

by grantfunk on Jun 15, 2007 12:38 PM EDT   0 recs

St. Louis vs. Kansas City
On the topic of KC vs STL, my girlfriend (who's from St. Louis) and I have weighed the various merits of each city.  We like our home cities, but neither one is that passionate about it, so there's not much irrational discussion.  She likes Kansas City, too, and I like St. Louis.  Here's what we decided.

In terms of "culture," Kansas City is better than St. Louis in a few areas:  
the Nelson-Atkins is way better than St. Louis's art museum.
Kansas City's ballet is better
KC is more architecturally unique (with the plaza, southwest motifs on various buildings, etc.)
better fountains and boulevards
Starlight theater is better than the MUNI
better barbeque

St. Louis beats Kansas City:
the STL zoo is way better than KC's
the opera and symphony are better in St. Louis
STL wins in terms of church architecture (it's a much more important ecclesiastical center)...the St. Louis cathedral basilica has really great mosaics
the arch is kinda cool and more recognizable than Bartle Hall's sky stations
more unique pizza with Imo's

Other stuff...KC's awful schools slightly beat out STL's awful schools, only because they recently earned back their accreditation and STL's recently lost theirs.
In terms of higher education, STL wins, but not by as much as they think.  WashU is really only great as a medical school.  Kids from Missouri think it's great in general, but out-of-state kids are generally disappointed they didn't get into Duke, Northwestern, or one of the Ivies. I would put Vanderbilt and schools of that ilk above WashU as well. UMKC is better than UMSTL, though SLU is better than Rockhurst.
KC, as stated before, is easier to drive around.

If we had to live in either city (the actual city, not the suburbs) we would pick KC. If suburbs were included, maybe Ladue, since it's really nice.  However, with the city/county divide KC is much nicer overall. Until St. Louis City is somehow incorporated into St. Louis County (I think the County should divide into 3 parts, each taking a sliver of the City), the City will continue to suffer. Many people in "St. Louis" care about the actual St. Louis even less than the losers in Kansas suburbs (the ones who think Kansas is better than MO because it's "safer/whiter") care about the city of Kansas City.  

Also, we've found annoying people in both places, but annoying people in KC are not as uniquely annoying as people in St. Louis.  Dumb KC people aren't less annoying, but they're more typical in a hick, cowboy, or Bible Belt sort of way.  St. Louis still hasn't gotten over the 1904 Olympics and World's Fair, and also the city's extreme Catholicism makes it a little different. People also can't pronounce "mostaccioli."

by mikewormdog on Jun 15, 2007 3:38 PM EDT   0 recs

Yeah but what panzies care about ballet, opera
mosaics and fountains. Surely not male baseball fans, right? KC has much better access to the important things in life like fishing, hunting, and the Ozark mountains. And barbecue of course.

Seriously, associating cowboy or the Bible with people being dumb is extremely naïve and insulting. I know a lot of cowboys that never bothered to go to college that are clearly more intelligent, but more importantly are better people,  than some of the pinheads from the various prestigious schools you mention. Stereotypes are a very dangerous thing. God snobs are boring.

by chukar on Jun 15, 2007 4:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thank God somebody saved
that awful post. Kansas City has a ballet? Who would have thunk it? From this bible-beating, cowboy, hick to you dude: Why does your girlfriend have your testicles in a jar? I'm going to have to show you some real culture. Me and chukar are taking you fishing, then we're going to a monster truck rally, then it's off to the Beuamont for beers and a ride on the mechanical bull. You'll never want to go to one of those pansy operas again (unless they do The Dukes of Hazzard or something). Yee Haw!!!!

by royaldaddy on Jun 16, 2007 2:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think if any man is being honest with himself
and not just trying to appear cultured, and presented the choice between going to the ballet or the...you could insert anything here, how about demolition derby, he doesn't even have to give it a second thought. I would be very interested to hear if anyone here disagrees. Maybe I'm missing something.

by chukar on Jun 16, 2007 3:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the post was about culture
If you read carefully, I'm not saying that people who love Jesus are annoying. I'm just saying the annoyances are slanted in that way for Kansas City, with the anti-evolution debates, anti-"Blue state" sort of stuff, etc. Similar annoying people exist in Tulsa, Wichita, Omaha, and other cities.  The STL brand of annoyance is simply more unique.

The post was about culture, not "culcher" or hunting and fishing. I didn't say I particularly enjoyed opera or the ballet, but even if i did, that doesn't mean I can't like baseball. The post was to compare St. Louis and Kansas City's cultural attributes, not to say "STL sucks with its hoity-toity, artsy-fartsy stuff" and "Kansas City is where real men live who love to hunt and fish and kick ass cowboy-style!"  Yeah, KC has a big Cabela's and probably more pickups with gun racks than STL. I wouldn't count that as a culture point in KC's favor, but perhaps you would.  

Maybe readin' and high-fangled book-learnin's for pansies, though.  Thanks for putting me in my place.

by mikewormdog on Jun 18, 2007 1:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I can't even get into how many levels
of ignorance you just touched on, but it's got to be fairly close to the world record. You gotta love closed-minded city boys who've never left their little concrete jungles. Yeah, I love God, fishing, raising the food that you eat, drinking beer, and (of course), baseball. But, you know what? That's okay. I don't have to like ballet or art or the symphony. If you do, more power to you. I don't have a problem with that. Hell, I like theatre and some art. But, your first post was a bunch of egotistical bullshit that put down an entire culture of people. Maybe you're just an arrogant prick, but I get tired of people saying bad things about the hardworking country people. I'm working on two degrees, run a small farm, and work a full-time job. Oh yeah, and I am raising two little girls. Next time, before you just assume that all people who drive trucks and like to fish and hunt are morons, understand that we were brought up a little differently, but that doesn't make us inferior to you and your "culcher". It gets a little old and tired hearing the same old "backwoods idiots" remarks from people who aren't one damn bit more "refined" than I am. I poke fun at myself all the time and guys like chukar and grudz joke with me about it. I don't mind that one bit. It's when people think that their shit smells like roses and that they're better than me that I get upset. There are good people and bad people everywhere, man. Don't just assume that someone that goes into Cabela's or drives a pickup with a gunrack is a hillbilly idiot. That just makes you look like a fool.

by royaldaddy on Jun 19, 2007 12:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Which team

...had more truck nutz dangling among its fans’ pickup trucks?

by Stat Ninja on Jun 17, 2008 4:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Saint Louis

A couple of advantages:

- Housing – I think the housing in Saint Louis kills KC. As I grew up in the Southland KC and now live in Saint Louis, the availability of rental places in row houses and four family flats is spectacular compared to all the apartment complexes in KC (there are plenty in St Louis as well).
- Parks – Having lived next door to Benton Park and Tower Grove Park, and down the block from Forest Park, I must say that there is very little like this in KC in terms of parks in the city.

A huge disadvantage right now in StL is the downtown. I was just in KC for a wedding and we stayed at Crown Center. From there we were within walking distance of the Power and Light, the Crossroads District, Union Station, etc… Saint Louis is missing on this bigtime with nothing in “Ballpark Village.” It is a hole in the ground. Whereas, Power and Light is ready to welcome fans and concert goers. Al Hrabowsky’s is one of the bigger bars by the ballpark and it’s made of aluminum siding.

Obviously, their aluminum siding bar beats KC’s “Denny’s”, but, the point here is more about downtown Saint Louis.

(what a long-winded, rambling post)

by kcinstl on Jun 17, 2008 5:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I love Forest Part

And the entire Wash. U area. The zoo is really nice. Soularde is really cool. But you’re right about their downtown. Its getting better, but its still way behind ours (which is way behind many other cities!)

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 17, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ladue....

is really nice? Places I would rather live than Ladue:
Soulard
Lafayette Square
Tower Grove
Saint Louis Hills
Central West End

I’d almost rather live in Chesterfield than Ladue. It’s a toss up.

by kcinstl on Jun 17, 2008 5:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I still don't get it
"I'm just saying the annoyances are slanted in that way for Kansas City, with the anti-evolution debates, anti-"Blue state" sort of stuff, etc. Similar annoying people exist in Tulsa, Wichita, Omaha, and other cities." Annoyances? And folks in those cities generally hicks, right? Huh?

The post was about culture, not "culcher" or hunting and fishing." So it is a snob thing, right? Along with Bible belters and and cowboys, hunters and fishermen as a rule not cultured?

Actually I wouldn't pay any notice if some guy chooses the ballet over fishing. That's his choice, and whether it brings into question an issue of femininity is a matter of opinion. The above was simply a response to a clear stereotype. But it's really not a biggie as it's a very common one. Just thought it needed to be pointed out.

by chukar on Jun 18, 2007 7:31 PM EDT   0 recs

learn to read critically and carefully
My previous post wasn't meant to be directed at chukar's comments specifically.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

More generally, if you cared to read the post and not get upset by my saying some positive stuff about the arts and that people in KC can be annoying, you would see that I preferred Kansas City to St. Louis.  I'm not saying working joes are losers.  I'm not saying people are wonderful, either.  I was attempting to make a more-or-less even-handed comparison of both cities' attributes, focusing on higher culture, since most previous posts didn't say anything about that. Kansas City I think has an unfair cowtown, backwoodsy image in some people's minds, but, like many stereotypes, there is a grain of truth in it.

I know what farms are like.  Both of my parents were raised on farms.  My uncle and many of my dad's cousins are farmers in central Kansas and ranchers in southern Texas.  I've been fishing more times than I've been to the ballet or the opera.  

However, being able to go fishing or hunting in rural Kansas or Missouri is not, in my opinion, a cultural asset of Kansas City's. It also doesn't make Kansas City distinctive.  I was trying to focus on each city's uniqueness, and that St. Louis is more negatively unique than Kansas City.  I know there are many fine people in all the cities I mentioned along with KC, but old-fashioned, rural values are common to many people there, and negative baggage can sometimes accompany those beliefs.  

To paraphrase my first post, I said "Dumb KC people are annoying in a hickish sort of way." I find this to be true.  Maybe some people think the worst part about Kansas City is its snobby cityfolk--I don't. I didn't say "People in KC are hicks." I didn't even say "Hicks are dumb." Dumb people in St. Louis aren't what I would call "hickish," but that doesn't make them less dumb.  Dumb people in New York (which certainly has more than its share) are also annoying in a different way.

Pay more attention to what is actually said rather than going off the handle when you see a few buzzwords.

by mikewormdog on Jun 19, 2007 1:46 PM EDT   0 recs

Good stuff Will

I saw the recent Census estimates put KC over 500,000 now. Catch up St. Louis!

As a near lifelong Kansas Citian, let me say that I do really enjoy St. Louis. I don’t know about “best fans in baseball” (suffer a decade of losing like we have and sell out the stadium, then we’ll crown you best fans), but they are pretty passionate about that team. The downtown is starting to come back (I think ours is better, but when the Bottle District opens up, they’ll be on their way). They do have some really awesome architecture in some places, although they’ve made the same mistake as KC and demolished or allowed irreparable harm to some really fantastic buildings.

And I really, really, really love their rail system. And the fact their ballpark is downtown. We’re really way behind on that!

As far as trash talk, I think this piece sums up my feelings on the Royals-Cardinals rivalry!

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 17, 2008 3:54 PM EDT   0 recs

Wow

I forgot how good this post was. Did I ever tell you you’re a great writer, Will?

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Jun 17, 2008 3:57 PM EDT   0 recs

Good post

That said, am I the only one who detected some irony when StL fans were being charaterized as small ball types? You know, with Mark McGwire hitting 135 HR in two years and Pujols averaging 40 HR a season while KC fondly remembers Steve Balboni?

by Stat Ninja on Jun 17, 2008 4:46 PM EDT   0 recs

LaRussa helps the small ball reputation greatly

He is very much an old school manager. He loves small ball and manufacturing runs. And the Royals were, back in the day a speed-and turf kind of team. They weren’t about HR’s, but they weren’t a big small ball and manufacturing runs team either.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jun 17, 2008 5:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Did you know LaRussa is a lawyer?

FL bar.

It’s funny that LaRussa has such a small ball reputation, too, since he managed the biggest bashing team ever (the 1980’s A’s, on which every player not named Carney Lansford was some version of the Hulk) and the McGwire 70/65 HR seasons and Pujols seasons with the Cards. When McGwire hit all of those HR, Tony batted him 3rd to guarantee more plate appearances for him instead of batting him cleanup as many would have preferred or assumed was correct 10 years ago.

Aside from the mullet, much of his reputation doesn’t seem to be well-deserved.

by Stat Ninja on Jun 17, 2008 5:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He also

Was one of the first to use computers and espouse the importance of statistics. Now that bashing sabermetricians is all the rage, he downplays his use of stats and instead says he relies on “feel for the game.”

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 17, 2008 5:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think his reputation for being an intelligent manager doesn't seem to be well-deserved

He’s a smart man, but a very old school, traditional manager. When he has a team full of HR hitters, he knows not to sac bunt in front of them. But on a more normal team, he loves the sac bunts, hit-and-runs and being “aggressive on the basepaths.” Like all traditional managers, he works hard to use traditional strategies which rob his team of runs. He sure didn’t look to hard into stats in developing his in-game strategies.

This is just my opinion. I could easily be wrong.

by NYRoyal on Jun 17, 2008 5:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitcher 8th

That was actually using an old idea, too. I liked that. It required knowledge of the game’s history, required some stones, and when he had data suggesting that it wasn’t practical or productive with his players, he stopped using it.

by Stat Ninja on Jun 17, 2008 6:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Has his data changed?

Pineiro batted 8th tonight.