Trade Deadline Open Thread: Dotel-Davies is Done
Jenn Sterger's covering the Trade Deadline for SI.com, right? Think of how effective she'd be as an inside information gatherer...
I'll keep this updated as news does or doesn't roll in. Will this trade deadline be the snore-fest many have predicted, or, as Tennyson said, will "some work of noble note, may yet be done"?
• Flanagan on Teahen's power outage.
• Rob Neyer will be chatting at ESPN at 12 ET.
• Rosenthal's latest includes no new news on Dotel, but does mention that Troy Glaus could be on the block.
• Will Carroll had this to say about the Dotel-Davies trade, the one that some people have referred to as done (as in completed) while others feel its distant:
• AJC on the Dotel-Davies rumor. Davies stats here.
• According to the Seattle PI, the Dotel-Davies deal is done, only official announcement is being delayed until the Teixeira deal goes final.
• The Cleveland Plain Dealer isn't giving up the ghost that the Tribe still remains interested in Dotel. According to the PD, Detroit is also a player.
• One odd slightly interesting thing about Davies, he's actually named "Hiram Kyle Davies", but appears to be known exclusively as Kyle. I'm shocked that someone growing up in Georgia and employed in baseball would drop Hiram.
Update [2007-7-31 13:45:59 by royalsreview]:
Jayon Stark reports that the Dotel-Davies trade is finalized, still just waiting on the Tex trade to go through.
******
Update [2007-7-31 14:51:3 by royalsreview]:
Jayson Stark has reported on ESPN's TV special that Dotel-Davies is done, final, official, and everything else.
0 recs |
226 comments
Comments
A depressing trade deadline, no doubt.
Davies certainly doesn't excite me, but now that we can count down the number of minutes to the deadline, I'm more and more willing to settle for the package offered by Atlanta. The birds of fortuity no longer seem alight on our shoulders.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What did you think we were going to get?
There was never any reason to believe that the Royals were going to get a good, young major leaguer or a top prospect. Dotel is a closer and none of the potential trade partners need a closer. They just needed a setup man. They are only looking for an additional good arm for their bullpens. And Dotel is good, but not great. Dotel is also frequently injured and he might go down at any moment. And, of course, he's a 2-month rental. All of this affects his trade value.
We will still probably get either Davies or Balentein. Both are pretty good young prospects with uneven track records. I'd be happy to get either one. We should all be happy to get either one.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be ecstatic if we got Balentien
I never expected Loney or Kemp, but I thought Gutierrez or LaRoche were options. We may have to toss in a minor leaguer, as well, but I'd be okay with that.
I don't think my expectations were unrealistic -- I just don't think we're going to get much of anything now.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
let me also say the Linebrink deal
He's better than Dotel, although not incredibly so, and additionally he doesn't have the Established Closer credentials which makes some GMs salivate.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What we're going to get...
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
by nkkc on Jul 31, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how many non-Dotelians go?
by royalsreview on Jul 31, 2007 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering this myself...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many non-Dotel Royals?
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent question
I don't see Moore parting with Greinke. Brown might be a good option for some teams, except he's failed to have his typical hot second half this year. So, that really leaves Riske, and I believe there was some rumblings yesterday that he might be headed to Atlanta for Thorman.
Am I missing anyone?
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grud and LaLa I guess
by royalsreview on Jul 31, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a center field option
by lordbyronk on Jul 31, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what other people think...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hehe
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just want to
by TXroyal on Jul 31, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before my time, but...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before my time also
by TXroyal on Jul 31, 2007 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you watch ESPN Classic...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree
by TXroyal on Jul 31, 2007 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kyle Davies?
by royaldaddy on Jul 31, 2007 10:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Only if you believe this is a dumb deal...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hard to judge since we don't know what the
but yea, Davies is lame
then again, i thought the same about banny
by FireBell on Jul 31, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reserve judgment
Moore and his crew have done a great job of scouting pitchers and picking up good pitchers that no one else thought was especially good (Meche, Bannister, Soria, and to a lesser extent De La Rosa). A track record like that has built up a lot of trust in me. Shouldn't it?
Davies has 3 very good pitches. And he's still just 23. He was clearly rushed to the majors. There is a reason why the cynics at Rotoworld said this sounds like a good deal for the Royals.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree completely
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another lousy young pitcher
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bannister and Soria didn't have 6.15 career ERAs
Rule V players like Soria are zero-risk; that's not trading a proven closer for a player with a 6+ career ERA (in the NL, at that).
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davies has a lot of talent
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davies is no Bannister
Davies is the type of pitcher I would enjoy seeing shelled every fifth day for the Cardinals.
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Moore, his front office and his scouts
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moore's track record????
This is another case of the Royals getting burned at the trade deadline. First, Herk Robinson was taken to the cleaners, followed by Allard Baird, now Moore is just as gullible.
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Moore's track record
Soria pick up
Bannister trade
And you didn't like the Macdougal trade? Have you seen his stats this year? You might want to look them up. You also might want to note that he's on the DL...again.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Davies' MLB stats speak for themselves
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not saying Davies is any of these guys, but...
Roy Halladay, cumulative ERA first three years: 5.77, including an Elarton-esque 4-7, 10.64 in 2000
Johan Santana, 6.49 ERA in 30 games his first year
Early returns aren't always definitive on pitching prospects.
by andrewmiller on Jul 31, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They all stunk!
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Flanagan read this site?
by FireBell on Jul 31, 2007 10:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
here comes the pitch, its a hanging curve
"Flanagan has been dumb enough to write about KC radio gossip and ratings for years now"
by LeoBloom on Jul 31, 2007 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i actually like flanagan...
by Billex Gordler on Jul 31, 2007 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball Prospectus
by lordbyronk on Jul 31, 2007 10:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As far as I know...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BP has no inside nknowledge here
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not totally true
by LeoBloom on Jul 31, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying BP doesn't know anything
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 maybe 3
by TXroyal on Jul 31, 2007 10:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I might have to run around town naked...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know how he could get traded
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can think of a few ways...
- The devil makes a GM do it
- Mafia puts some pressure on a GM
- Alien probing technology damages a GM's brain
- LaRue has some "pictures" of a GM
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just think of it...
by nkkc on Jul 31, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have faith in Buddy...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
5. every major league catcher contracts Bird Flu
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Atlanta?
by SLUGERRR on Jul 31, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davies for Dotel
by NHZ on Jul 31, 2007 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rushed pitching prospect
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jenn Sterger would pique my interest anytime
On a serious note, I love the fact that GMDM is using a sell-high vet to acquire young pitching talent.
May the Royals keep wisely stock-piling potential arms for the near future.
by KC Blue on Jul 31, 2007 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Scouting Notebook 2005
"After doing things his way during his first two years in the Atlanta farm system, Davies decided to take the Braves' advice and alter the mechanics of his delivery prior to the 2003 slate. He overcame some inital awkwardness to put together a solid showing before dominating at every step of the 2004 campaign.
Davies is one of the fiercest competitors in the minors. His changeup rates as the best in the Atlanta system, and his hard fastball, which has increased in velocity from 86-87mph to 92-93mph since revamping his mechanics, can be overpowering.
Davies' command has made significant strides of late and the consistency of his slider will determine how soon he is pitching in Atlanta."
He's either a gem or a right handed Odalis Perez.
by howserfan on Jul 31, 2007 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One analyst's opinion (from BP)
Christina Kahrl : I don't think we need to get overly worked up over whether or not Octavio Dotel's stock has fallen or risen--keep your eye on the player, not the stage. He's the sixth-best Royals reliever this season, and more of an ex-famous person than the guy who handed Billy Wagner leads. For the Royals, this was a well-excecuted single-season rental for a player whose 2008 option (effectively mutual, since his team can nix his exercising his player option) they should have had zero interest in exercising. The timing would be impeccable, as Dotel's only just about to start getting into his appearances bonuses, which might bring him another million dollars or so this season. Four or five years of Davies under control, and what that could be worth, represents an excellent pay-off, but not to rip on the Braves, it was also a price they could afford to pay, given the amount of young pitching coming up in their system, and their obvious frustration with Davies.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 11:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ding ding ding
by royalsreview on Jul 31, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree... with the cheapness...
by grudz69 on Jul 31, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't it about time a final decision was made?
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 12:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
3 hours 49 minutes to go
by royalsreview on Jul 31, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think my girlfriend is getting pissed...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the deadline was 3:00 eastern time
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think its 4
by FireBell on Jul 31, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Deadline
by MileHighKCfan on Jul 31, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope we keep Dotel and
by RTC Fan on Jul 31, 2007 12:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Multi-year extension for Dotel?
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you, RTC....
by natemaestro on Jul 31, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you be happy with
And that would be $7 million less per season that the Royals would have to spend on FA pitchers and position players and/or less money to use to lock down our young players long-term. Spending money is a zero-sum game. YOu spend it on one guy and that is less money to spend on others.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that may be a bit
Regardless, most on the board agree that Soria or Greinke or both will be moved to the rotation next year. Let's split the difference and say Soria goes to the rotation, and Greinke stays. If we don't sign Dotel, that we will have lost two good (yes, good) arms in the bullpen. Not to mention the stability factor.
I'll quoting Joe Posnanski, because he verbalizes what I've been saying here for some time:
No, he has done something much larger. His presence has given the Royals' bullpen an entirely new identity. The numbers before and after Dotel are staggering (before Dotel, the bullpen ERA was 4.93; since, it is 2.91). Even more than that, Dotel has given Royals' pitchers a chance to develop at their own speed, at their own pace, under less pressure.
Look:
"Zack Greinke before Dotel: 1-4, 4.85 ERA, league hit .322 against him.
Zack Greinke after Dotel: 3-1, 3.72 ERA, league hit .227 against him.
Joakim Soria before Dotel: 1-2, 3.74 ERA, league hit .247 against him.
Joakim Soria after Dotel: 0-1, 1.19 ERA, league hit .139 against him.
David Riske before Dotel: 0-2, 3.66 ERA, league hit .294 against him.
David Riske after Dotel: 1-0, 1.24 ERA, league hit .206 against him.
And so on. There are many reasons why you sign a free agent, but one of the least-appreciated is how his charisma will affect the team and the players you are trying to develop. Dotel, in ways that are not always easy to explain, has helped make the Royals a much better team. Kansas City is now five games over .500 since May 13 -- and the bullpen is a big reason, and Dotel is a big reason for that."
And no, I would not be happy with paying a player $7mm/yr for half a season. Who would? I don't think that will happen, though.
Basically, what I'm saying is, I feel it's a risk worth taking. As I said earlier, I understand your argument. My opinion differs. That's all.
by natemaestro on Jul 31, 2007 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're not alone
by cmkeller on Jul 31, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any thoughts on Dye to Boston?
by FireBell on Jul 31, 2007 12:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope the chisox don't get a good pitching
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same story, different name
How about getting something we don't have, a talented young outfielder with 30-40 HR potential?
This isn't about what Dotel is worth or not, this is about choosing between the options we have. Moore is blinded by his knowledge of the Braves system and the fact that he drafted the kid and wants to give him more chances to succeed.
Meanwhile we have a ML lineup devoid of power and no OF in the system anywhere near ready that can produce any power. We're filling our 3rd or 4th need before our #1 (with a bullet).
Hey Dayton, if you want to see a young guy with great talent live up to his potential, how about working on Zack Greinke a little bit and letting your old boss deal with his own headaches.
by Big Guy on Jul 31, 2007 12:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not bad logic at all
by FireBell on Jul 31, 2007 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't know if he is "blinded"
And what do we know about Balentien? The he's never had a good minor league season until now, among other things. Is this one good season for real? Hard to say.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's about holes
by Big Guy on Jul 31, 2007 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point, nyroyal...
if royals scouts like davies more than balentein (sp?) then i feel like they've earned the right to make that call. in any event, they know more about scouting than i'll ever know, so when the trade comes down, i'll just have to shrug and hope that it works out.
by Billex Gordler on Jul 31, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone knew how good Meche is
The Royals were paying for street cred in addition to paying for the pitcher.
I give Dayton plenty of credit for making this team improve, but let's not get carried away. Gil Meche was one of the most sought-after free agents last winter, not a hidden nugget that all-knowing Dayton mined.
by cmkeller on Jul 31, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
You are wrong, wrong, wrong. Every analyst was saying that Meche was not even quite mediocre and wasn't worth half that much money. Now you are revising history.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The heck with analysts...
Does an extra year and an extra million per make Moore more of a genius for "recognizing" Meche than those guys?
Understand, please, that I like Moore and I'm not downplaying what he's done for our favorite ball club.
by cmkeller on Jul 31, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other GM's
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Money on the table talks
by cmkeller on Jul 31, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many teams had money on the table?
Did you read any articles on FA signings this offseason. Writers, columnists, GM's, front office personnel, EVERYONE was lampooning the Royals as making obviously the worst signing of the offseason and maybe one of the worst of all time. More deserves a lot of credit for finding a diamond in the rough in Meche...and Bannister...and Soria.
And now Davies? Maybe.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, the two other teams
Dayton Moore deserves heaps of credit. Even though I'm unwilling to treat Gil Meche as a find that only he was aware of, I give him credit for identifying him as someone worth making the extra effort to pursue.
But that said, real baseball people knew Meche had great potential. Two other teams were willing to make 40 million dollar commitments to him. Others weren't, because they either had their eyes on bigger stars or because starting pitching wasn't their most pressing need. And no doubt many thought Meche would be a bad signing as well.
But Dayton wan't the only one who had Gil on his shopping list last winter.
by cmkeller on Jul 31, 2007 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Subject.
Have you met the Cubs? They defined overpaying for attracting "quality" free agents. That's what they do and have always done.
Honestly of the three teams that were interested in Meche, the Jays were the only one I trusted to make a decent pickup (we didn't know about Moore yet)...and the Jays later went off on Meche saying that if he wanted to be on the Royals, then he was a loser.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get
That being said, I'd still rather have Wlad. But I won't be "depressed" with Davies/Lillibridge.
by RoyalsRetro on Jul 31, 2007 12:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Davies and Balentein
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's hard to question Dayton's scouting
That said, I think you're selling Balentien a bit short when you say he's only had one good year. His annual OPS has been:
2003 Rk 1.021
2004 A/A+ .833
2005 A+ .891
2006 AA .777
2007 AAA .933
That looks to me to be at the very least to be 3 decent seasons, one mediocre season, and one great season (2007). You could make the point that he's had 3 great seasons ('03, '05, and '07) and two mediocre/decent seasons.
What I like is that he's hit double figure homeruns every year, with 20+ or more 3 times now, and has had 10+ steals 4 years in a row now.
His power coupled with his speed makes him look to be an impact player. I don't know that we have anyone in the system (except for possibly Lubanski) that has an impact bat and is this close to contributing.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this guy looks good too...
I won't complain either way.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like this kid
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing that makes me prefer Wlad
I also think it's easier to predict an offensive player's career based on minor league stats than a pitcher's. It's less risky, I think. (Shealy notwithstanding).
If Davies can develop into a #2 or #3 starter, though, he would likely be the player with more overall value to our team, so really, he'd be worth a shot.
I'm happy with either at this point, too, particularly when the alternative is not trading Dotel at all.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pineiro just got sent to StL
by MileHighKCfan on Jul 31, 2007 12:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The more arms in the system the better
by RTC Fan on Jul 31, 2007 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
In the past year, he's traded, or attempted to trade away, the following pitchers under 23 years of age:
Howell
Sisco
Burgos
Cordier
Nunez
Only one of those trades was for another pitcher, which coincidentally was the only trade I actually liked at the time.
Here's the other thing, 4 of those pitchers were ranked among the Royals top 10 pitching prospects at the time (or as recently as the year prior, if they had major league experience) The other being Nunez, who was in the top 15, I believe.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Proctor For Betemit going down
by MileHighKCfan on Jul 31, 2007 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Braves offer Texeria for Dotel and Shealy.
by beavisyeah on Jul 31, 2007 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you smoking crack?
by MileHighKCfan on Jul 31, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a runor on the holdup
by beavisyeah on Jul 31, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was this rumor reported anywhere
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to MLBtraderumors.com
by MileHighKCfan on Jul 31, 2007 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What is holding up the
by TXroyal on Jul 31, 2007 12:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Now the Dye to BoSox trade
by MileHighKCfan on Jul 31, 2007 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why would Dye care...
by Big Guy on Jul 31, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
During the trade deadline
by MileHighKCfan on Jul 31, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got into the ESPN Neyer chat
A little later down, however, he says he is "sympathetic" to Moore if GMDM thinks he can improve Davies, given how much Moore know about him.
by Eppenweb on Jul 31, 2007 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That sounds very
by MileHighKCfan on Jul 31, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN's trade dead line
by TXroyal on Jul 31, 2007 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
30 minutes in and no word on Dotel
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They mentioned him twice...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN finally reporting on Dotel
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Git "R Dun, Dayton
On a side note, isn't the idea of a PTBNL that you can NAME THEM LATER? What's the point if you hold up the deal to name them and have them get a physical?
by Big Guy on Jul 31, 2007 2:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
BP on the ATL hold up
Trade Deadline Team: As soon as the Rangers get the Matt Harrison MRI results and sign off on the Braves' deal, then Atlanta will make the trade with the Royals. If Texas doesn't like what they of Harrison's arm then all bets are off.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gammons sez
There is also talk some teams are pissed that Dayton settled for a lesser offer than what they were offering because he knows Atlanta.
by RoyalsRetro on Jul 31, 2007 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hate this....
by RoyalsFanInMarinerTown on Jul 31, 2007 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We haven't pissed off anyone
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
by RoyalsFanInMarinerTown on Jul 31, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's silly
And I think that stuff about most GM's thinking Davies is crap is pure BS. Stark is reporting that while the trade was on hold, Atlanta was getting independent offers (plural) for Davies.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dotel "on sale"
Moore has to be careful that we don't work ourselves into this "Atlanta's little brother" or Dayton Moore's home for wayward Braves" persona. It will make it harder for us to trade with other teams in the future.
by Big Guy on Jul 31, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Evidently,
NYRoyal likes stats to back up our positions, so here's something from Jay Jaffe at BP:
Defining a significant ML career as one accumulating 10.0 WARP, only 6 of the last 80 Braves prospects traded ever reached this significant level. The point of his article was, more or less, buyer beware when dealing with ATL.
I'm in the camp of take the Seattle deal instead, if it is for Balentien.
by loyal2s dad on Jul 31, 2007 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the key is that...
by Billex Gordler on Jul 31, 2007 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN: Tex deal done, no Davies in that deal
by RoyalsRetro on Jul 31, 2007 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry I disagree with most of you about Davies
by RoyalsFanInMarinerTown on Jul 31, 2007 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just happy we got something out of him
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would've preferred releasing Dotel
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you kidding?
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I apologize that I don't care for 6+ ERA pitchers.
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's silly about that?
He's played enough games that his ERA isn't the result of one bad night at Coors Field.
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is silly
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Royals had traded a struggling AAA pitcher
Frankly this type of trade reinforces my view that Bell deserves an extension.
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're losing it here...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is losing it, and I'm pretty neutral on Bell
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we've had this argument before...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ERAs are very subjective and context dependent...
In addition, Dotel isn't very good...so we needed to get rid of him.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying Dotel was the greatest
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dye for Perez?
by Billex Gordler on Jul 31, 2007 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, worthless?
by RoyalsFanInMarinerTown on Jul 31, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a deal for the future
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Davies is the future,
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worst.overreaction.ever
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
Contraction? Have you lost your mind?
by RoyalsFanInMarinerTown on Jul 31, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has lost his mind
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Elarton's career ERA is 0.84 below Davies
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that you equate the two
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ML stats are the best way to judge players
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ML stats at age 21, 22 and 23
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's been miserable in eastern Missouri
Remember Charlie Finley ran the A's into the ground in the 1960s. KC was better off with them leaving and getting a new team. Perhaps it's time to start over again.
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our future?
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can dump the Royals whenever you like
Saying this was a trade for the sake of a trade shows you how little you know about Davies. In fact, it is clear that you know nothing about him other than some of his stats.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hope there's more to this deal
by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Jul 31, 2007 2:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think
by Buck McCoy on Jul 31, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
does anyone know if we're still getting the other
Or is it Dotel for Davies straight up?
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 3:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Final details aren't out
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in light of the linebrink deal
It was also heavily rumored we were getting two more propects in addition to Davies. I guess I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up too much, but it's hard not to be disappointed.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No analysts seem surprised
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And maybe we can trade him
by Big Guy on Jul 31, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts
by wildthang on Jul 31, 2007 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Being 23 doesn't make a player more desirable
by jbrocato on Jul 31, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This makes him desirable
- Very good fastball which he can spot wherever he wants it
- An excellent changeup
- A very good curveball
- Good minor league stats
- He's only 23 and has lots of years of improvement, quality and inexpensive performance ahead of him.
- His poor major league performance came from ages 21, 22 and 23.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davies
by lordbyronk on Jul 31, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BP's quick take on this trade:
Trade Deadline Team: You should feel, well, 'ok'. It's not like the Royals turned down Hu and went for Davies instead. They weren't going to get a top prospect for Dotel, and they decided to get something instead of nothing, hoping they can fix Davies and that a change of scenery will do some good as well.-
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That makes sense
Basically, Dotel was something between the fourth and sixth best pitcher in our 'pen.
Two months of him isn't worth that much and what we got in return probably isn't much but theoretically could be a lot.
Even if it turns out to be a lost opportunity, not that big of one. We don't know for a fact that Seattle was going to give up the players mentioned.
This is the negative view of Keith Law at ESPN.
The Royals get ex-prospect Kyle Davies. Davies was a top prospect when he was coming up through Atlanta's system, and they liked him enough that they refused to include him in the Tim Hudson deal, offering Dan Meyer instead. As it turns out, Davies has been awful in over 200 big-league innings, with no indication that he's getting any better. His fastball command is still poor, his control hasn't been good since he was in Double-A in 2004, and the only thing his average changeup does for him is ensure that lefties don't hit him any harder than righties do. I'm not sure what the Royals see in Davies, since we now have a significant body of evidence indicating that he isn't good enough to pitch in the majors. The charitable view is that he's a project and the Royals believe they can fix him. Given the reported asking price for Dotel from other clubs -- the Seattle Post-Intelligencer has reported that the Royals and Mariners were discussing Wladimir Balentien, for example -- this is a major letdown for Royal fans.
by howserfan on Jul 31, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will we ever really know?
Our wish was for a position player. We have little to nothing in our MLs right now that suggest ML prospects at nearly any position. I ask "how did we end up with another AAAA starting pitcher who will have to work his way into the starting rotation?"
Last night was a perfect example: good pitching performance from Meche eclipsed by the complete ineffectiveness of our offense against a young pitcher with a 5+ ERA.
by Big Guy on Jul 31, 2007 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's my thought on the...
- Balentien is better and we got hosed.
- Davies is better and we did good.
- They both turn out good, but given that pitching is more valuable than hitting...we're able to trade Davies later for more profit than Balentien
- They both suck. It didn't matter.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except
Seriously, is Davies a better prospect than Greinke? How about Hochevar? Soria? Lumsden and Buckner I suppose, but how many 2 and 3rd starters do you need?
Now Balentein? He'd immediately be our top OF prospect, no question. He might even be our starting LF for the rest of the year.
Who is "better" is always against the context of how a player can help an organization. WB could have helped us much more than Davies.
by Big Guy on Jul 31, 2007 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need SP depth
And we don't know how good Balentien is. No one was talking about him before this season. He was on no one's top 100 prospect list. How good is he? I'd like to hear some objective analysts speak to this. All I see is a bunch of fans pointing to one year of good stats.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if we had been offered Betemit?
I can't believe the Dodgers would prefer Scott Proctor over Octavio Dotel.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hopeful
Where's he going to go now? Omaha? Are they going to send Nunez back down and put Davies in the rotation? I hope somehow we could also get Odie traded and put Davies in that spot.
Also, two ways to look at GMDM and the Braves: either he knows the players inside and out and is picking them off one at a time, like Davies and TPJ, or the Braves are using him.
I hope it's the first one.
by Matty486 on Jul 31, 2007 3:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
TPJ sucks
Let's also not forget that he made his MLB debut at age 25, two years older than Berroa did.
Sorry for the rant. I guess I'm just a bit upset with Moore right now. Hopefully, Davies will pan out to be a great pitcher and I will look like an idiot. Fortunately, Davies did have some excellent seasons in the minors, so hopefully that will translate to success in the majors sooner rather than later.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
by Buck McCoy on Jul 31, 2007 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Advantage: Pena
Pena, Jr. 2007: .284/.300/.379
by andrewmiller on Jul 31, 2007 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no question
Career-wise, here are the numbers:
Berroa: .263/.305/.384
Pena: .278/.296/.375
Keep in mind, that line by Berroa includes what was one of the worsts seasons in history by a shortstop, so even with 2006 dragging Berroa down, he's still on top.
Career Fielding Numbers
Berroa: .964 Fldg% 4.46 Range Factor
Pena: .962 Fldg% 3.86 Range Factor
Grim, yes? But I guess he's a semi-decent stopgap and is likely playing better than Berroa would have this year, unless Berroa reverted to his old form.
The main reason I don't like TPJ is because we gave up Eric Cordier for him, whom Baseball America had named our #6 overall prospect going into 2007. Seems like a waste to me. Had we not given up so much for him, I'd be far less critical.
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
by Buck McCoy on Jul 31, 2007 3:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just want to say
by Moose Tacos on Jul 31, 2007 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rany and Dayton on the radio
by RoyalsRetro on Jul 31, 2007 3:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Davies threw a knuckleball
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rany and I have something in common.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked him too
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hammered?
He's got 92Ks in 101IP, a 4.81 ERA, and about a hit an inning. Yeah, he walked way too many...but that's not really hammered.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just going to say my favorite line of the day.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chuckles...nice
On a side note, I am confident that the White Sox will never, ever use him as a starting pitcher again in the majors. They don't think very highly of him at all. Of course, I think Kenny Williams is a poor GM. Maybe we could trade Lumsden back to the Sox for Haeger. I'd be all for it.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be awesome.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody likes you when you're 23
What the hell is ADD?
My friends say I should act my age
What's my age again?
What's my age again?
by RoyalsRetro on Jul 31, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's Blink right?
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's all I need to know
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice
by RoyalsRetro on Jul 31, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From ESPN blog
The Royals get ex-prospect Kyle Davies. Davies was a top prospect when he was coming up through Atlanta's system, and they liked him enough that they refused to include him in the Tim Hudson deal, offering Dan Meyer instead. As it turns out, Davies has been awful in over 200 big-league innings, with no indication that he's getting any better. His fastball command is still poor, his control hasn't been good since he was in Double-A in 2004, and the only thing his average changeup does for him is ensure that lefties don't hit him any harder than righties do. I'm not sure what the Royals see in Davies, since we now have a significant body of evidence indicating that he isn't good enough to pitch in the majors. The charitable view is that he's a project and the Royals believe they can fix him. Given the reported asking price for Dotel from other clubs -- the Seattle Post-Intelligencer has reported that the Royals and Mariners were discussing Wladimir Balentien, for example -- this is a major letdown for Royal fans.
Not sure who said he could locate his fastball, but this clearly disagrees with you. I thought he had 3 "plus" pitches?
by Big Guy on Jul 31, 2007 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There is disagreement on him
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen the kid pitch live once or twice in...
I don't think it's a majore letdown, but I can understand why people might rather have had Balentien. In the end, I think we would have done well either way and I'd rather have the pitcher. I think I've said that 38,954 times though so it's probably tiring.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luke Skywalker
by Moose Tacos on Jul 31, 2007 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fastball
by RoyalsRetro on Jul 31, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I See The Mighty
by philofthenorth on Jul 31, 2007 4:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Like I said in one of the diaries
Kyle Davies at least equals Kason Gabbard. I've watched Gabbard every start this year and he's due for a major whupping.
by NHZ on Jul 31, 2007 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
when in doubt, choose the pitcher...
davies has been no worse than bonderman was at similar ages, and nyroyal's been good about posting other great pitchers' early career stats. i think it's safe to ignore davies' ML career to this point.
by Billex Gordler on Jul 31, 2007 4:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rany on Davies, Dotel, Moore and the trade
Davies has the potential to be a solid #2 but he is a risk. He might not realize that potential. He came up too young (like Greinke). Did great in the minors but then was rushed and has done poorly in the majors. Thinks he's healthy with a good fastball with good command of it. But has control problems with change and curve. At only 23 years old he still has a lot of upside value. He could be another very good SP.
Both Rany and the radio guy give Moore the benefit of the doubt after he picked up Meche and Bannister. Rany likes how Moore's trades have worked out, like Burgos for Bannister, which he initially ridiculed. Meche was considered a terrible FA signing, but it has turned out to be fantastic. Tony Pena has done better than anyone expected. Gathright has done very well. Moore has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Moore knows Davies well, but so do the Braves. So, who knows how good Davies really will be? Dotel had to be traded but losing him will hurt the bullpen probably. The whole bullpen got better when Dotel came off the DL.
Dotel might be back as a FA signing this offseason. Thinks Royals may well bid for him this offseason.
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wonder...
It's also possible that the Braves just have so much pitching talent in the minors that they aren't worried about Davies?
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
by RoyalsRetro on Jul 31, 2007 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could be...
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
New ownership though
by RoyalsRetro on Jul 31, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point taken.
by dejackso on Jul 31, 2007 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a theory
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another theory
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rany liked Balentien too
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe they also wanted LaRue
by marbotty on Jul 31, 2007 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe they wanted Greinke
by NYRoyal on Jul 31, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my thoughts on this entire shibang...
--- i doubt balentien was ever offered, and if he was it was likely for more than dotel. sure, i probably would rather have wlad than davies but i personally dont believe it came down to a one or one decision. even if it did, as mentioned above, i trust GMDM with any move (especially for a pitcher) and will at least wait a couple of years before deeming this deal a failure. i suggest all of you do the same.
--- i basically agree with everything NYRoyal said, also in a less confrontational/bringing up taking your medication way. davis is young and has plenty of potential. we likely wont see him in royal blue all year long, my guess is he will start in omaha and stay there (like hochevar/buckner/etc.) until he proves he can dominate at that level.
--- im not pissed off one bit. i know i said this earlier, but i will give davies until ST 2009 before deeming this trade a failure/success, he is still a work in progress and deserves time. if he is ready early that is fantastic, but i am not expecting him to sniff the majors until next summer.
--- dont get me started on how you can compare kyle davies to scott elarton. and how you can make that jump to contraction? just wow...
by rockchalk on Jul 31, 2007 6:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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