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Central Thoughts

Its 2008, deals continue to be made, and its never too early to start thinking about how our beloved AL Central will pan out. Beyond just another instance of blogger-fueled detail-grubbing, this really seems like one of the most fascinating AL Central seasons in memory. Then again, I thought we'd see an epic four-team race (between actually good teams mind you, not just NL-esque garbage parties) in 2007, and instead we got a half-hearted Tigers-Indians battle, which never amounted to much because the Tigers simply had a miserable second half. It seems fairly certain that 2008 will again be a two-team race, but I doubt anyone really has a grasp on how the Twins-White Sox-Royals battle will turn out.

So here is what I'm thinking, as of a miserable Sunday night in January:

1. Detroit (2007 Pythag 89-73) The Tigers aren't the 100-win monster that people seem to expect, but they'll be a very good team. The Willis-Cabrera trade is more properly viewed as a hedge against numerous likely declines than as a Randy Moss type deal that vaunts them to historical levels of dominance. Forget his awesome 2007 total numbers, did you know that Mags hit .429/.498/.639 with runners in scoring position last season? Yea, thats not happening again. Still, despite the incredible oldness of the roster, this is almost like a Yankees team of recent vintage, with Renteria and J. Jones also coming in for late-night stories about the 90s and overpriced, but still legitmate, production. Even Gary Sheffield will be around for 80 games or so. Like those Yankees teams, its a roster where three or four guys can really disappoint or miss time to injury, and it still doesn't really matter. To take the comparison further, the pitching staff looks good, but also vulnerable to some rough patches as well. Early hunch: 93 wins.

2. Cleveland (2007 Pythag 91-71) The Indians won 29 one-run games last season, creating some gap between their actual record and how well they actually played. Like the Tigers, this is a deep enough roster that they can absorb some down seasons (like Hafner's 2007) and still do well, thanks to whoever else steps up and the general quality of the team. While they might easily win the division again, the gap between them and Detroit wasn't very wide, and I'm not sure they'll get the tremendous starting pitching they saw in '07. Sabathia threw 241 innings last season en route to a career season, and it seems highly likely he won't be posting a 3.21 ERA again. Ditto for Fausto Carmona's 3.06 mark (215 IP). Honestly, I'm not thrilled about what Paul Byrd might do in 2008 either. Other than adding noted Christian Jamey Carroll, and the brilliant addition of RP Kobayashi, Cleveland seems a little too content to expect that never-that-good-to-begin-with Asdrubal Cabrera and another season of Gutierrez/Dellucci/Michaels splitting time on the corners will work again. Still, its a low-risk roster whose strength is up-the-middle awesomeness with Martinez and Sizemore, buttressed by not fielding anyone else who completely sucks, which is a greater asset than it appears at first glance. Early hunch: 90 wins.

3. Twins (2007 Pythag 80-82) I was tempted to put the White Sox or Royals here, but the Twins are still ahead of those two, possibly even if they trade Santana. I see an adequate, if uninspiring outfield of Young-Monroe-Cuddyer, with just about the same taking place on the infield. Sure, Lamb-Everett-Harris won't produce many runs, but Morneau and Mauer will help keep the lineup functional, and above turn-of-the-century Dodger levels. No, they can't win the divison, but  even if they trade Santana and Nathan, there's too much OKness here to prevent a total collapse.  The Twins went 10-26 against the Tigers and Indians combined in 2007, and I think they'll improve on that in 2008, if nothing else. Liriano is lurking here somewhere in the shadows, right? Early hunch: 80 wins.

4. White Sox (2007 Pythag 67-95) There are scenarios where the White Sox win 90 games, and scenarios where they win 60, and I'm not sure which extreme is more likely. There's a miserable season or two lurking somewhere in the nearby future here, as this is a very old team, but I don't know if it arrives in 2008. The fact is, the lineup at least is now potentially scary thanks to new additions Quentin, Cabrera, and Swisher. At first blush I didn't like the Cabrera or Swisher trades, especially in the long-term, but with Juan Uribe and Josh Fields waiting to fill in during the inevitable injuries to someone old,  I think its a given that the league-worst offense will improve. Kenny Williams may have overpaid for Nick Swisher, but Swisher essentially replaces Darin Erstad in the lineup, one of the largest upgrades anyone's made all winter. Sure, the pitching could potentially implode, just like it did last year, but there is also a chance that Danks and Floyd aren't horrible and that Buehrle and Vazquez eat innings and survive. And Konerko, Dye and Thome aren't actually as old as they seem, as they'll only be 32, 34 and 37 respectively. So yea, not something you'd want to build around, but not exactly suicidal for one more year either. Maybe I'm giving Ozzie and Cooper a little too much faith that they'll fix their bullpen, but... Early hunch: 78 wins.

5. Kansas City (74-88 Pythag) I don't actually think the Royals will finish fifth, but I think they're probably still the fifth strongest team in the division, if that makes sense. Fourth, with either a Chicago or Minnesota collapse, is pretty likely. But Minny and Chicago both also have better odds of taking third than the Royals do. The biggest problem the Royals face is a lack of elite talent. If you were to construct an AL Central All-Star team, which Royal would make it ? Alex Gordon you say? There's that Cabrera guy, and Alex might not even be better than a generic Joe Crede season until 2009, either. Basically, you've got Gil Meche in there somewhere as the AL C. AS's #5 starter maybe, with Soria making the bullpen squad. I think everyone on this site can talk themselves into seeing this as a 85 win team, and that might even happen, but that requires massive leaps from a number of guys, and how likely does that ever happen?  Last season, Teahen, DeJesus, Shealy and Gordon all had disappointing seasons, which puts a damper on my natural enthusiasm for all of them. Still, this roster is now good enough that it could compete for a playoff spot in the National League, which is reassuring in its own limited way. I expect a better offense, with a potentially excellent bullpen, buoying dropoffs from Meche and Bannister. There are things to like across the roster, but my sense now, at this moment, is that the Royals are about where the Brewers were two years ago, which is still better than we've been since the late 1990s. Early hunch: 77 wins.

So... this looks strange doesn't it? I'm a little lukewarm on the actually good teams, and convinced the Twins and White Sox still have some fight left in them. The off-season is far from over, but barring the inevitable Johan drama, its likely that we now know where everyone pretty much stands: Cleveland and Detroit as the clear class of the division, with a lot of uncertainty beneath them.    

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Elite talent
The biggest problem the Royals face is a lack of elite talent.

The question is when players like Gordon, Butler and Greinke will realize their elite player potential.  Will it be 2008?  I don't know.  But they could be that "elite talent" that the Royals need.  I think it is just a question of when.

And, when you look at age, deterioration and injury, I think the Royals have more overall talent than the White Sox (and maybe the Twins when they trade Santana).  Key players for the White Sox are deteriorating rapidly, causing their stats and games played to drop (see Thome, Dye, Konerko and Contreras).

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 7, 2008 1:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

been thinking about Gordon
he could be a true elite guy next year... or he might not be... I don't see anyone else making that leap tho

by royalsreview on Jan 7, 2008 11:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Does He Have
A bionic nose now? That looked really brutal.
I'm not getting older....oh, wait, yes I am....and slower.... and weaker. God, this is great!

by philofthenorth on Jan 7, 2008 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

77 wins
I don't think your "early hunch" is far off, but do you really think that this team has only improved by 3 games over their pyth. record from last year?  Even with some regression from Meche and Bannister, I think this team improves by more than 3 wins.  Compared to last season, we should see many improvements:
  • Guillen is a big improvement over what we had in LF last year
  • DeJesus underperformed his prior seasons and should be expected to improve
  • Future stars like Gordon and Butler should improve
  • Greinke in the rotation all year should be a big improvement over O. Perez
Don't you think that all amounts to a net improvement of more than 3 wins?
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 7, 2008 1:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Can't forget Larue-Olivo
170 at bats where you increase the OPS by 170 points has to be worth something.  Half a win?
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 7, 2008 5:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think they have improved, as well
RR's correct that Bannister and Meche are likely to regress, but I think Greinke and Hochevar/Nunez should comprise a big enough improvement over the #3/#4 options from last year that it will offset the regression.    

If I could go a step further, I'm so bullish on Greinke right now that I think his performance alone may be enough to offset any drop in performance from our Meche and Bannister.  

Even if Davies ends up taking over the Scott Elarton role, and starts 10 games with a 6.50 ERA, that's a four run improvement per 9 than Scott Elarton.

Guillen, even if he only manages to play uninspiring baseball, will be a huge improvement over the horror show that was Emil Brown 2007.  

I also think we've got solid new players in Callaspo and Olivo, and if Callaspo ends up taking a starting spot from one of our middle infielders, he'll be an improvement.  Even if he doesn't, he should be a huge upgrade over Smith.

My only concern is that as much as this team has improved, so has the rest of the division.  I think there's a decent chance we could win 80 games and still be 4th or 5th in the standings.

I probably just agreed with you.

by marbotty on Jan 7, 2008 9:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

both good points
my hunch may be a tad pessimistic...

by royalsreview on Jan 7, 2008 11:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Too many "shoulds"
3 out of 4 of your points include the word "should", not that we're here to talk grammar, but it's hard to build a case for much more than 3 game improvement on a bunch of players that should perform better.  
  • I agree that Guillen is a talent upgrade in LF.
  • I doubt that we'll see more than a slight increase in DeJesus' numbers this season.
  • I do think Gordon will improve on last season, as his performance was significantly below what we might have expected based on his performance in the minors.  
  • I doubt that Butler will show much improvement over 2007.  His numbers were not that far out of line with what he did in the minors, and I think he needs a full season with the big club in 2008 before we see significant improvement.
  • At this point, we still don't know what we have with Greinke.
So yeah, probably a few more than a 3 game improvement, but hard to really project much more than that with so many "shoulds".
I'd rather be watching baseball.

by Sisquatch Kids on Jan 7, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Should's
"Should" means that it is most likely to happen.  Do you disagree that these things are the most likely result?

I doubt that we'll see more than a slight increase in DeJesus' numbers this season.

Why?  Look at his stats.  His 2005 and 2006 were nearly identical seasons and much better than 2007.  Isn't he more likely to have a season closer to 2005 and 2006 than 2007?  Why do you think the one season that is less like the rest of his career is the real deal?

I doubt that Butler will show much improvement over 2007.  His numbers were not that far out of line with what he did in the minors, and I think he needs a full season with the big club in 2008 before we see significant improvement.

Player development types will tell you that when you see that kind of a season from a 21 year old, you can expect much better things in the future. Usually good players at this spot on the developmental curve are improving greatly from year to year.

At this point, we still don't know what we have with Greinke.

True, but I think he's a safe bet to be considerably better in the rotation than Perez.

So yeah, probably a few more than a 3 game improvement, but hard to really project much more than that with so many "shoulds".

I'm not saying this is an 85-win team, but the most likely outcome I think is an improvement that is definitely more than 3 games.  I'd say consevatively 5-6 games.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 7, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

DeJesus/Butler/Greinke
It is very reasonable to expect DeJesus to bounce back to his previous production, Butler to improve, and Greinke to provide a significant upgrade over Perez (even if it turns out that Greinke is merely solid).  1B and the back half of the rotation are still major problems, but no more so than last year.  The only regular position player in any real danger of falling off a cliff is Grudz, but he has defied his age so far, and the team has two adequate replacements ready in German and Callaspo.  The optimism is genuine.

by Gopherballs on Jan 7, 2008 6:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hate subject lines...
DDJ: If he is not forced to play the role of leadoff hitter, then I think it is reasonable to suggest that he could/should come closer to his production from 05-06.  If he is forced to bat leadoff and gets over 600 ABs I see a very similar season in store for him.

Butler: Most young hitters like Butler who have not yet had a full season in the majors make good progress in their first full season, but do not really show their biggest improvement until their second full season...see Miguel Cabrera.  I do agree that he should improve, just don't want to suggest that it will be a real breakout just yet...I know that's not what you wrote, but I still don't want to get too excited about big  improvements until I see it.

5-6 games: Yeah, that's the number I had in mind as well.  I had thought you were suggesting more in the realm of 12-15.  Should will get you the 5-6 your talking about.

I'd rather be watching baseball.

by Sisquatch Kids on Jan 8, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Explain this.
Butler's Minor League Career--
.336/.416/.561
OPS: .977

Butler's 2007 Omaha Numbers--
.291/.412/.542   
OPS: .954

Butler's Major League Numbers--
.292/.347/.447   
OPS: .794

Not far out of line, huh?   

by doublestix on Jan 7, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not far out
when taking into consideration that they are numbers from the majors and not minors.  He did what you would have expected him to do making the move from AA to MLB in less than 2 years.
I'd rather be watching baseball.

by Sisquatch Kids on Jan 8, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gordon
Is it unreasonable for him to explode (HA!) ala Troy Glaus did in his second full season?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/G/troy-glaus.shtml

He struggled mightily in his first 700 AB's, but then really came into his own. Now, don't get me wrong -- he's not going to OPS over 1.000 next year. But with a talent like him, it's not out of the question for him to emerge into a .290/.370/.520 type next year? I don't think so, and I'm not so sure it won't happen either.

by doublestix on Jan 7, 2008 1:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

.850 OPS perhaps likely
That would qualify as one of the top 5 offensive performances over the last 5 years.  

The exciting thing is that between Guillen, Teahen, Gordon, Butler, and DeJesus we could potentially have 5 guys that top .800 and even a couple in the .850 - .900 range.  That would be fantastic.

by marbotty on Jan 7, 2008 9:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wheeeeeee
And if you want to think optimistically, Shealy could too!

Callaspo's MLE has been like .310/.380/.430 or something like that the past two years as well...:-)

by doublestix on Jan 7, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bill James
Projects .820 OPS for Gordon.  .812 for Teahen, .838 for Butler.

by howserfan on Jan 7, 2008 8:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

PECOTA
I think the PECOTA projections for Gordon and Butler will be higher than that...and lower for Teahen.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Jan 7, 2008 9:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good to see
my powers of prognosication reside somewhere between that of an old man and a robot

by marbotty on Jan 8, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, no,
PECOTA is an algorithm.

Bill James a robot.

There, that's settled. :P

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Jan 8, 2008 6:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm An
Old man. I only know what I've seen, and I expect marked improvement from Gordon, Teahen, DDJ and Butler. With Guillen in the middle, this could become a formidable gauntlet for pitchers to run.

DDJ/Callaspo
Gritz/Callaspo/German/DDJ
A-Gor
Guillie
Jeeves
Teahen
Exgload/Shealy
Buck
TPJ/Callaspo
Bench- German/Callaspo/Gritz/TPJ (pick 2), Gator, Gload/Shealy, Olivo

With good pitching, this team could go .500, maybe even a few games over. With great pitching, they're contenders. I think the low end is 75, and that's with injuries and other assorted bad breaks (like Shealy being who we think he is; don't crown his ass).

I'm not getting older....oh, wait, yes I am....and slower.... and weaker. God, this is great!

by philofthenorth on Jan 9, 2008 12:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to think
the White Sox are the worst team in the division.  They have a decent lineup, but their pitching is beyond shaky.  Twins are in a semi-rebuilding year and it's hard to say where they will wind up.  I tend to think 4th early on, but it's hard to say.  The Royals will finish third and be around .500, particularly if some of the guys mentioned above emerge.  Cleveland and Detroit will duke it out all year and look pretty evenly matched for 1 and 2.  

by lordbyronk on Jan 7, 2008 8:01 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Beyond Shaky
Is right.  Buehrle and what?  Garcia is gone, Garland is gone, el Duque is gone, Contreras and his fifty year old shoulder are done.

The bullpen was a black hole last year---leads went in and they never came out.

With half their games in that ballpark, which plays as an extreme home run park, they might give up 900 runs---they're my pick for last.

Not to worry though, they just traded their top two pitching prospects for Nick Swisher [!]

Gonna be a long rest of the decade on the South Side.

by howserfan on Jan 7, 2008 9:15 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Royals could make a run at third
I agree with other readers that the White Sox are the worst team in the AL Central. Also, if the Twins are able to unload Santana, the Royals have a decent shot and making third place in the division.

by Deaner on Jan 7, 2008 11:09 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget our other upgrade....
Hillman for Bell.  Hopefully that will be worth a hand full of wins (maybe 5).  

I think it's probably right that the Twins, White Sox, and Royals are a toss up for the last three spots.  I do think the Royals have improved more than the other two teams.  The difference will be if the Royals can continue their mastery of the West and do better against Baltimore and Toronto in the East.  I'd put my expectations at 80 wins.

by backinbudblack on Jan 7, 2008 11:19 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Div
6-12 against CHI
7-11 against CLE
7-11 against DET
9-9 against MIN

by royalsreview on Jan 7, 2008 11:30 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good wrap up
Detroit - a bit overhyped IMO. Their pitching is solid, but I think Verlander will regress, Dontrelle will not adjust to the AL very well, and the rest will be pretty mediocre. Solid rotation, but not great. Their bullpen still has Todd Jones in the back, and a hurt Zoom-aya, so finishing games could be an issue.

I really don't know why Cleveland didn't follow Milwaukee's lead and go after every single good reliever available. Betancourt and Perez are solid, but if they are banking on Borowski again, they are fooling themselves. They have a lot of spare parts that could be valuable for other teams (Josh Barfield, Ben Francisco, David Dellucci, Cliff Lee, Kelly Shoppach) but haven't been able to turn those into value on the trade market. If they can (Jason Bay?), I think they turn into the favorites.

Minny is talented, but obviously trading Santana (and Nathan) hurts a lot. I can see them finishing behind KC if they really go young. But with Santana, you can probably get lots of MLB ready players, so they likely won't be too awful. Let's not forget Liriano may finally be healthy.

Chicago is probably better than us this year, but that will be the last time they should finish ahead of us for some time. Their rotation still looks awful to me after Buerhle, they have bullpen concerns, and their offense is decent, but not great enough to overcome those obstacles.

Then there are our boys. I think they could improve significantly - and still finish fifth. That's how it goes in the AL Central.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jan 7, 2008 11:37 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

JoBo
Had one of the worst seasons of his professional career.  His regression seems unlikely.

Betancourt certainly, his control can not be THAT good.

Don't forget Perez, who dominated all season and 'wore down' against the Sox.

by bheikoop on Jan 7, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good thoughts, RR...
I think 3-5 in the central will go right down to the wire.  None of the 5 teams in the central are that good that barring injuries and meltdowns that they could falter and in up on the bottom.  But, I would go with your 1-5 placements as of today.  

by grudz69 on Jan 7, 2008 1:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The Indians
I think the Indians will go back to being the 3rd/4th place team in the division.  The team was extremely fortunate that they did not suffer any injuries of consequence.  You take Martinez, Sizemore or Hafner out of the lineup for an extended period of time, and this team will fall.  I just think they were too fortunate in 07 and will fall victim to injuries the way the Tigers did in 07 after a year without any.

by bheikoop on Jan 7, 2008 1:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Twins
Why does everyone assume that the looming Johan/Santana trades make the Twins a much worse team than their 2007 version?

Do the Johan/Nathan deals not bring back players who can help them win immediately? With Neshek taking over the closer role and Liriano returning (what does the RR community predict for his 2008?) couldn't this 2008 Twins team be an improvement over their disappointing 2007?

by ctrell on Jan 7, 2008 2:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Personally
There is no one in the majors that could come in and replace Santana as a pitcher.  It also appears as if the Twins are looking at high ceiling prospects.

As far as Nathan is concerned, while Neshek could presumably step into his role, taking Nathan out removes an outstanding are from the bullpen.  That said, everyone goes up a rung on the ladder.

I'd say if the Twins do not make a trade, they could make some noise.  They will also need a great deal of health.

by bheikoop on Jan 7, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As a Royals fan, I hope
the Twins are stupid enough not to trade him. I sure as hell don't want to see Phil Hughes, Jon Lester, or any of the other high profile prospects that they could get for Santana to haunt us for many years to come. Let's hope Smith is stupid enough to pass on Hughes + for one more summer with Johan.

by royaldaddy on Jan 7, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good summary of the division.
I also think you are a bit on the pessimistic side about the Royals, but not by much.

I think the over/under line for wins next year might be 79.  Which I think will put them in 4th place, maybe even 3rd.  I think the Twins and White Sox both will spit their bits early.  The Twins will unload what they have left and look to the future while the White Sox will just be miserable and unpleasant.

And I am always optimistic about our beloved team, so I am expecting 82 wins next year.

It should be an interesting year.

by James Quinn on Jan 7, 2008 9:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ironically
I agree with your overall assessment of each team, but I too do not believe that the Royals will finish 5th.  That honor will go to the White Sox.  Their lineup looks formidable, but I think we're forgetting how God-awful their bullpen was last year. That was a putrid performance rivaling some of the late-90's Royals versions.    
"I'm tired of all these stupid a$$ questions every day. Why the f**k would I hit Brett for Miller?" The rest is history.

by DC Royal on Jan 8, 2008 1:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

And
Let's not underestimate Ozzie Guillen's ability to drive that team into the ground.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jan 8, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree with the assessment of the Indians rotation
But I have to think that all their 21-27 year old guys like  Garko, Cabrera, Peralta, Guitierrez, Francisco, Perez, Lewis (and perhaps even Barfield) are going to make most of those 1 run victories into  2 or 3 run victories.
Yoda

by Yoda on Jan 8, 2008 2:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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