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Spring training stats are meaningless

Since the spring training games are about to start, I thought I'd discuss the relevance of spring training statistics.  My contention is that they are meaningless.  I suppose it would be more accurate to say we don't know how meaningful any spring training stat is.  The real point is that they are completely unreliable and don't really tell us anything about the player or how well he'll do in the regular season for the following reasons:

  1. Sample size.  Every player's official spring training stats represent a very small sample size.  For starting pitchers, this means 15-25 IP.  For relievers, 5-15 IP (or less).  For position players, this means 40-70 AB (regulars) and even less for backups.  Actual spring training "A games" are only a small part of the work players do in spring training.  There are also "B games," minor league games, simulated games and of course all of the practices and workouts.
  2. Uneven competition.  There is a wide variety of talent in spring training.  A player will end up facing some complete scrubs, some ok minor leaguers, some decent major leaguers and some great major leaguers.  When looking at a player's spring training stats, you never know if he faced a disproportionate number of good or bad players.  The level of competition changes throughout spring training.  There are more bad players early in spring training and they are weeded out as spring training progresses.  Also, early in spring training, the pitchers are usually said to be ahead of the hitters.  So spring training stats also can reflect when a player got his playing time and thus, the quality of players he played against.
  3. Unreal play.  Not every player in spring training is always playing as if it were a real game.  And I'm not just talking about the veterans who cruise through spring training and don't give 100% because they know they have a starting spot locked up.  There are also many games throughout spring training when pitchers are working on particular pitches, so they throw almost all fastballs, or don't throw one of their breaking pitches to decrease strain on their arms.  Position players also might be working on contact in some games, or bunting or some other particular skill.  All of these things are done to work on one element of a player's game without regard to actual game outcome or the player's stats.
  4. Rarefied air.  For a variety of reasons, the ball carries very well in Arizona.  That can pump up power numbers and hurt pitching stats.
These are some of the reasons why spring training stats are unreliable and essentially meaningless.  There are many examples to prove this.  Here are several just from the last two seasons of Royals baseball (with their spring training (ST) and regular season (RS) stats):

Brian Bannister 2007
ST - 10.03 ERA
RS - 3.87 ERA

Gil Meche 2007
ST - 7.31 ERA
RS - 3.67 ERA

Ryan Braun 2007
ST - 3.48 ERA
RS - 6.64 ERA

Jason Standridge 2007
ST - 4.35 ERA
RS - 8.22 ERA

Denny Bautista 2006
ST - 3.00 ERA
RS - 5.62 ERA

Mike Wood 2006
ST - 2.50 ERA
RS - 5.71 ERA

Ambiorix Burgos 2006
ST - 3.46 ERA
RS - 5.52 ERA

Steve Andrade
ST - 1.64 ERA
RS - 9.64 ERA

J.P. Howell 2006
ST - 4.00 ERA
RS - 5.10 ERA

Mark Teahen 2007
ST - 329/385/557
RS - 285/353/410

Ross Gload 2007
ST - 393/424/643
RS - 288/318/441

Fernando Cortez 2007
ST - 429/500/464
RS - 286/333/357

Alex Gordon 2007
ST - 317/419/556
RS - 247/314/411

Mark Grudzielanek 2007
ST - 286/333/286
RS - 302/346/426

Angel Berroa 2006
ST - 439/439/684
RS - 234/259/333

Doug Mientkiewicz 2006
ST - 431/500/627
RS - 283/359/411

John Buck 2006
ST - 128/163/234
RS - 245/306/396

Joe McEwing 2006
ST - 436/500/667
RS - 000/000/000 (6 ab)

Matt Stairs 2006
ST - 132/214/132
RS - 261/352/429

You can see many huge differences from spring training to the regular season.  Sometimes they were much better in spring training and sometimes they were much worse.  And this is the whole point with spring training stats.  Sometimes they will be indicative of what the player does in the regular season.  But often they will differ greatly.  You just never know.

And yet, fans on this site and all over the country will say throughout March that Player X should make the team, or be a starter or make the rotation or be traded or released because of his spring stats.  That makes no sense to me.  Spring training stats aren't good or reliable evidence of anything.  So, how should roster decisions be made going into the regular season?  As I said above, A games represent a small percentage of spring training work.  An organization should (and does) make its personnel decisions based on what the players do in all kinds of spring training games, as well as how they have looked all spring long in practices and workouts.  And, of course, performance in prior years is an extremely important element in evaluating these players.  I'm all for evaluating players based on performance more than simply tools or skills, but there just isn't enough reliably measureable performance in spring training for us to just go by the stats.

So, let's have a fun spring training and hope no one gets hurt.  But let's not hang our hats on spring training stats.  (rhyme unintended)

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Agreed
Now go win that elusive Cactus League Championship so we can raise a flag at Kauffman Stadium!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 27, 2008 1:24 PM EST   0 recs

I would also mention...
That ST is a great time for players to try different things.  I think that some players use this time to try and tweak some parts of their game to see if it works better etc.  Maybe this isn't true, I don't know.  But I would imagine that ST would be a good time to try these things out in a live game.
Waiting for the Royals to appear on ESPN everynight!

by MooseTacos25 on Feb 27, 2008 1:39 PM EST   0 recs

Definitely
That's part of what I meant by #3.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 27, 2008 1:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Haha...
I think my eyes read the pitching part of #3 and then jumped to #4... All in all I agree 100% with you.  Pre-Season games in all sports are meant for practice and evaluation, not as an indicator of how the season is going to go IMO.
Waiting for the Royals to appear on ESPN everynight!

by MooseTacos25 on Feb 27, 2008 1:52 PM EST   0 recs

agreed +1000000000000000
In spring training, knowledge comes from scouting reports rather than statistics, and even then it's limited.
"I'm tired of all these stupid a$$ questions every day. Why the f**k would I hit Brett for Miller?" The rest is history.

by DC Royal on Feb 27, 2008 2:04 PM EST   0 recs

i agree...
BUT...it was extremely weird because Teahen was getting rave reviews about how he may be even better then he was in 2006. About how he was getting more loft on the ball...etc.

Shouldn't hang you're hat on ST...but god damn am I excited. It's about TIME!

by doublestix on Feb 27, 2008 2:11 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Not saying everyone dosn't know this
So, why is the general assumption that Huber needs to show something in ST to earn a roster spot after three seasons worth of the occassional callup and riding the bench?

The key, in my mind, is to utilize a more tools oriented evaluation.  It is similar to prospect evaluation: evaluate the tools that translate best into major league success.

If Huber's bat looks better than Shealy's, his swing more compact and quicker, and he hits .200 to Shealy's .300 in 50 AB, then I'd contend you take Huber (if all that is holding Huber back is getting good cuts against "MLB" pitching).

Then again, I'm not saying anything you don't already know.  Tools/scouting when combined with statistics is the way good GMs evaluate players.  

by ajblobaum on Feb 27, 2008 2:38 PM EST   0 recs

Comfort
I think a big part of this ST will be analyzing the comfort level for many of the guys.
  1. How comfortable does Butler look at 1B
  2. How bout Teahen in LF as opposed to RF
  3. Does Hoch look comfortable on the mound facing live batters
  4. Can Buck find an approach at the plate he's comfortable with again.
And lots more just like that. Not saying that "comfort" is everything but for many of the guys I think just looking comfortable will get positive feedback from the scouts and coaches.

by MileHighKCfan on Feb 27, 2008 2:49 PM EST   0 recs

And yet
I think that is all true, and yet some fans will be complaining when the initial 25-man roster comes out because Player X made the team with a 5.75 ST ERA, but Player Y didn't make the team and he had a 3.75 ST ERA.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 27, 2008 3:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

this is what I will look at...
last year I had the MLBtv.com package and watched like 3 or 4 games...I never really took pure stats into my vision, but I have been trying to do what a scout would do (kind of betting with myself)...so last year in ST I noticed Duckworth with some really nasty stuff and I bet on him (with myself) to do well...of course Ducky was great until he threw the oh-my-god-my-entire-oblique-system-just-blew-out pitch...so yeh, 5 buck winner (TO MYSELF!)...then I thought Shealy would average .300 with no power because he was slow, but would baby every pitch he swung at for a single...negative 5 bux...those are the two I really remember...

Oh...I remember Gordon looking great...I hope he gets away from his ARod/Ankiel/Knoblauch overthinking phase...read the KC Star the other day and it scared me that Gordon was an overthinker...I was wrong about that kid and its kind of scary...hope he tunes in his inner meathead and busts loose

so I don't use ST stats at all, just like I don't give an EFF about anyone teams' record, because a good record normally just means that a team has too many guys playing for too much too early, which is a bad, bad sign (muy muy mal hombres)...so lets hope Greinke has pop on his fastball everytime he throws it...lets see how fluid Butts is at first...lets watch MLB's most underrated defensive OF bust out assists from LF...and take a chill pill and wait for the real deal

Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Feb 28, 2008 12:46 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Nice Farva reference!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 28, 2008 11:23 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Spring traning stats are meaningless
But spring training grit, veteran presence and clutch are all of the utmost importance.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 27, 2008 3:46 PM EST   0 recs

Couldn't agree more
And we all know that stubble matters too.  Veteran stubble and hard noses.

by ajblobaum on Feb 27, 2008 4:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

And the beat goes on...
So, ST stats are meaningless... so what!!!  The pontification is starting early this year.  

by grudz69 on Feb 27, 2008 6:12 PM EST   0 recs

It is relevant
We do a lot of evaluating players on this site.  From now until opening day, we'll be doing a great deal of that.  I just thought I'd discuss how relevant, meaningful and reliable spring training stats are in evaluating a player, because I know some of us will be relying on those stats in saying who should or should not be on the roster.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 27, 2008 6:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

i love the rhyme at the end
makes it sound very educational

by royalsreview on Feb 27, 2008 7:58 PM EST   0 recs

I only trust....
...wisdom/advice/analysis that rhymes.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 27, 2008 9:38 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

this is a very marketable statement...
...you should make a T-Shirt...your like Ralph Machio in a crane pose...I ain't goin EFF with you
Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Feb 28, 2008 12:50 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

the statement I meant was...
"I only trust...wisdom/advice/analysis that rhymes"...it seemed unclear the way I put it (I've had a few Guiness's's's tonight)...but I think I can out profit you with my "I ONLY VOTE ON SPORTS ISSUES" T-Shirt...of course I would go to each city with a new stadium and put that teams logo underneat the statement...damn I think this would actually work
Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Feb 28, 2008 12:53 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

of course...
"I only trust...wisdom/advice/analysis that rhymes" would be putting off those that believed in the 60's spiritual movement that put faith in all those great rock lyrics...but, of course, some of them were to stoned to rhyme
Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Feb 28, 2008 12:56 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

sounds sort of Schoolhouse Rock-ish
I want to watch an animated baseball sing to a manager, after the scrub player who gets promoted based on spring training ends up hitting .183 on the regular season, dashing their hopes for the playoffs.
This space intentionally left blank.

by marbotty on Feb 28, 2008 3:36 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Spring Training means little to nothing
statwise. It makes sense to keep an ERA on mechanical issues and injuries, but really ST stats aren't worth a dime. I don't disagree with this one, that's for sure.
Obama-Buck 2008!

by NHZ on Feb 28, 2008 12:26 AM EST   0 recs

Wrong Stat Selection
I think you're looking at the wrong stats. To me, one ought to look at K/AB and K/BB for hitters . For pitchers, one should look at K/9, K/BB and first pitch strike percentage. I think these are the things that would dictate future success for that season.

With that said, I have no proof of this as I have not looked these things up as NYRoyal has done in his post. I just think, if I were to look at Spring Training stats, I would look at something other than  batting average and era.

I'm really good at being wrong... sometimes.

by BlownSave on Feb 28, 2008 1:22 AM EST   0 recs

A few things
First, with regard to hitting I didn't just look at batting average.  And I think OBP and SLG are much more telling stats about how a hitter performed than merely K/AB and K/BB.  Strike outs and walks are important, but hits are too.  And extra base hits, even moreso.

Second, ERA certainly isn't the best stat to use.  But I wanted to use something quick, easy and something everyone could understand and relate to.

Third, given the wide variance that players have between spring training and the regular season in every stat I've  looked at, I don't think there is any reason to believe that it would be different for a few well chosen peripherals.

To me, one ought to look at K/AB and K/BB for hitters . For pitchers, one should look at K/9, K/BB and first pitch strike percentage. I think these are the things that would dictate future success for that season.

Why?  And do you have any support for this?

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 28, 2008 3:55 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Thoughts
I do not know if I can prove this statistically, but it is something I would like to look into.

My thought is a hitter's success is dictated by how well one can see the ball. I think a lot of guys can see the ball very well, but hit into a lot of bad luck during Spring Training, whereas a guy could hit .400 with a .750 slugging percentage but strike out half the time because he's going all or nothing in order to make the team or an impression. I suppose what I am looking for in a hitter is a guy who puts the ball in play frequently and can get on base.

As for pitchers, I think K/9, K/BB and first pitch strike percentage best reflects one's ability to control the strike zone and what kind of dominance he has over the strike zone (his "stuff"). My understand is there is research that shows pitchers who frequently get out ahead of batters are more likely to be successful than ones who are constantly working from behind. I think K/9 is a good way to show long term success and K/BB shows command.

Again, I have no statistical proof of this as it relates to Spring Training. It's always been the way I thought about things (especially prospects). But I'll take this as a challenge to look into it. I did like your post though as I do many of your other posts.

I'm really good at being wrong... sometimes.

by BlownSave on Feb 29, 2008 1:16 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

remember when Gotay hit 7 hrs that one year?
I still contend he could be Vidro 2.0
This space intentionally left blank.

by marbotty on Feb 28, 2008 3:28 AM EST   0 recs

Gotay has some holes in his game
  • Can't hit lefties to save his life.  His platoon differential is gigantic.
  • His defense is atrocious.
  • Very poor plate discipline.
Gotay is more like German, with worse hitting and on base skills.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 28, 2008 3:59 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Good Article
Found this over at HardBallTimes.com:

link

It's about using Observational Analysis  to go with all the stats and such that many of you really follow well. Sounds like a lot of work, but also sounds like it would be the most precise data you could get if performed correctly. Take a peek at it and let me know what your take is on it. I'm curious what you statheads think.

by MileHighKCfan on Feb 28, 2008 10:57 AM EST   0 recs

Here's what you don't get about this fanbase
NY, while your article is very good, and is most likely the truth, I think it bears pointing out why this particular fanbase may argue with you about such things:

In order to trust a franchise to see the truth thru the stats during spring training, said franchise needs to have been good at its player evaluations in the past. This particular franchise has been woefully lacking in that regard for the last decade and a half or so.

That is why, until the new regime gains their trust, you will continue to see, what on the surface may seem to be irrational, criticisms of franchise roster decisions.

We are in Missouri, and Royals fans, while optimistic about the new regime, definitely still embrace the "Show Me" mantra when it comes to Royals upper management.

by loyal2s dad on Feb 28, 2008 11:55 AM EST   0 recs

Trust
I don't expect fans to just close their eyes and trust the Royals management to make all the right decisions.  They haven't earned that trust.  Hell, no organization has earned that much trust.  

Criticism of acquisitions, trades, call ups, send downs and every other kind of personnel move is certainly reasonable.  I just think it should be based on good, meaningful information.  And spring training stats are not good, meaningful or reliable information.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 28, 2008 2:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

So are we all in agreement?
John Bale should be the opening day starter and we should release German and Yabuta?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 28, 2008 12:45 PM EST   0 recs

Been savin this....
but I gotta ask now. Why that screen name for a Royals blog? Not that I care, just curious if there was another meaning.

by MileHighKCfan on Feb 28, 2008 4:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

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