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Revisiting the Beltran Trade

With the Santana drama finally behind us - it was somehow appropriate that JoePo's satirical blast came just before the trade was finalized - I'm sure more than one fan here in the Midwest was reminded of the Royals' predicament at the turn of the century, when the Royals traded Johnny Damon, Jermaine Dye and Carlos Beltran largely because of budget concerns. Dipping into fansites and blogs over the last week would make one think it was 2000 again, instead of 2008, with real consternation about the fact that the Twins had to trade Santana. It's less of an issue now, but from the mid-90s on a pervading sense of loathing dominated our mindset as Royals fans, and indeed, the mindset of many fans across the country, with the cause being a profound sense of economic injustice. After some modest changes by MLB and the success of small-market teams in Oakland and Minnesota, that's less of a concern now, and certainly nothing like the issue it was then. Maybe the reason everyone missed or looked the other way on steroids was the fact that talk radio and column inches were dominated by endless recitations, often in the same purple prose we've come to expect from steroids sermonizing, of how unfair the game's salary structure was. Moreover, the ownership in many cities went out of its way to perpetuate this meme, to varying degrees of sincerity. As you may recall, numerous protests actually took place during Royals-Yankees games here in Kansas City, and a riot damn near broke out when Chuck Knoblauch (illustrious former Royal) returned to the Metrodome in 2001. I wasn't blogging then, but I was fairly active on a Royals yahoo-groups email list. After every losing streak, every trading deadline (whether the Royals were involved or not) and every major off-season signing, we'd flare up into a 15-email thread about how THE SYSTEM HAS GOT TO CHANGE!

By the time Carlos Beltran was traded in 2004, the anger of those times was fading. Moneyball had been out for a year, popularizing the legend of Billy Beane, and shifting the discussion from salaries to smarts. Of course, for the hyper-fandom that was already active online, everyone already knew about the A's. Better yet, the Yankees stopped winning every year, which seemed to help immensely. Yes, the Royals were in a tough spot, but if they were smart, if they drafted well, if they took the right chances, it wouldn't matter. At sites like Baseball Prospectus, people actually started to argue that having a small payroll was actually a blessing in disguise because you never killed yourself with a horrible Chan Ho Park type contract in the first place. So, for a variety of reasons - including the absolute insanity of the Red Sox-Yankees universe of hype that lasted from 03-05 - people started to focus on other things, including steroids.

Amazingly, first as a small-market apostate to the Yankees, then as an accused PEDs user, Chuck Knoblauch has actually destroyed our National Innocence twice.

 For that reason, the Beltran Trade was a hinge moment for Royals fans, connecting on one side to all the bad old days of the post-strike era and on the other side, reaching forward to happier times, including today. There'd been at least two solid years of whining and self-pitying regarding his inevitable trade or worse, empty free agent departure, a mood deeply tied to the team's previous experiences with Johnny Damon and Jermaine Dye. Damon was the first to go, traded in January of 2001 to Oakland, and Jermaine Dye was traded in-season later that year, to, uhh, Oakland again. Aside from about a year long period from May 2003 to May 2004, when we all still loved Berroa, the fanbase was not only angry to see those players go, but bitter at how Allard Baird had been fleeced by Billy Beane. As horrible as it was to be a Royals fan in, say, 2005, when we were setting new records for losing EVERY season, I still contend it was actually much worse in 2002: the Royals had no money to spend and were being run by fools.

Of course, the complete randomness of 2003 threw everything off in everyone's mind for at least another two years. Its hard to imagine now, but there was actually an eighteen month period (or so) when Allard Baird was being supported by not only casual fans, but the hardcores as well, including the national smart set. He'd always had good scouting bona fides and had had some success finding bit players in strange places. Now, he'd embraced OBP and a Beane-esque drafting strategy. He choose Calvin Pickering over Ken Harvey (for about five seconds) and on and on. The ironic thing is this: by the time he traded Beltran, just about everyone had given up on him again, even though in hindsight, its hard to imagine a better move he ever made. When the Royals collapsed again in 2004, we were back at square one: we can't keep our good players, and we trade them for pennies on the dollar. It didn't help either when it turned out that, again, Oakland was involved as one of the trading partners.

So, in honor of the Santana trade, in honor of all these bad memories, lets look back at the Beltran deal, when the Royals said goodbye to likely the best position player the team had had since George Brett. The way we were, 2004.

The package:

Beltran traded as part of a 3-team trade by the Kansas City Royals to the Houston Astros. The Oakland Athletics sent Mike Wood and Mark Teahen to the Kansas City Royals. The Houston Astros sent Octavio Dotel to the Oakland Athletics. The Houston Astros sent John Buck and cash to the Kansas City Royals.

So the Astros got Beltran and the A's got Dotel.

The Royals got:

  1. Mike Wood
  2. Mark Teahen
  3. John Buck
  4. Cash
Buck and Wood were added to the big league roster and both made their debuts with the Royals in less than a week's time. Teahen played out the rest of 2004 in Omaha (were his production immediately plummeted) and debuted as a starter in 2005. As for the cash, according to insiders, Christmas 2004 for the Glass family was among the best on record. If I may signpost rather robotically again, lets take a look at these parts one-by-one, save the cash.
  1. Mike Wood (stats). Wood gave the Royals 34 big league starts from 2004-6, as well as 53 additional appearances out of the bullpen. He was a bit below average in '04 and '06, but in '05 he posted an ERA+ of 99 across 115 innings, all while earning the league minimum. Nowadays, if a Dayton Moore pickup manages the same, we all take it as another data point in the merits of the Bravest Way to run a baseball team. (Just sayin'.) While Wood struggled with injuries - like 90% of young pitchers - there were scenarios in which he could have been a valuable swingman, especially if the team was developing a young rotation. The Royals were sorta trying to do this at the time, but nearly everyone turned out to be horrible. In 2006 Wood started strong but was inconsistent and sometimes terrible and his days in KC came to an end. Usually the throw-in guy in a trade is a C prospect who never does anything. In this case, Mike Wood was the throw-in, a low-ceiling type who nevertheless has shown enough that, barring major injury, he'll keep getting one-year deals and Spring Training invites until he's 35. If he strings together 30 good innings one year and lucks into a low-ERA, he'll retire with at least $10 million in his pocket. I must admit I was always irrationally partial to Wood, and am convinced the Royals misused him (see Affeldt, Jeremy) and only saw what he couldn't do, not what he could.
  2. John Buck (stats) Buck was a well-known prospect when the Royals acquired him, although his stock was falling after a rough season at AAA in 2003. Thanks to the Beltran trade, the Royals got four years of John Buck for around $1.4 million, not bad when you consider, despite some flaws, he's still an adequate, if not above-average catcher. (Catching is at a weird place right now, it seems like there's no middle class, just a few truly great hitters, then a million Paul Bakos.) This is, as Royals Authority put it, The Funny Thing About John Buck. Like his fellow Beltran-bountymate Mark Teahen, Buck is something of an enigma, mixing long stretches where he looks awful and topped out, with intense, brightly lit periods of incredible brilliance, like fireworks against a black sky. In '04, '06 and '07, his monthly splits were all over the place. He's nearly a lock to give you one month when he posts a SLG over .500 and another around .150, year after year. In 2004, as a rookie playing for no real reason, for example, his monthly SLGs went like this: .154, .231, .513, .538. In 2006 his monthly OPS breakdown was: .598, .674, .953, .550, .646, .844. Of course, in many ways this is normal for many players, its only more exaggerated with low BA guys. Still, its all part of the John Buck experience. All of that being said, for where he is on the pay-scale, with a nearly impeccable record of health, John Buck is an asset. Not a huge one, but still certainly an effective use of his roster spot.
  3. Mark Teahen (stats) Does anyone else have Teahen fatigue? In April of 2006 I wrote, in an interview with a Devil Rays blog, "it seems like I spend my whole life talking about Mark Teahen", which of course was BEFORE he became one of the most mysterious players in baseball. He's a fan favorite, seems to be a genuinely good dude, and has a well-rounded skill set and team-first personality that makes him someone you want to succeed. Yet, we still don't know what he's going to be, no matter how much we talk about it. Its ok Mark, he's only 25, and has been documented, men aren't exactly attacking their 20s with great brio anymore. I've got a few years on Mark myself, and my life is pretty pathetically nebulous. Basically, my fiancée sees potential and everyone else sees another random grad student. So I know how he must feel, minus the bank account and tribute videos on youtube. I get it. OK... lets run through this again: good OBP, solid BA, less than frightening power, especially for a corner outfielder. Power has made appearances before, it could come back, but, it might not. (Obligatory mention of the fact that he was an absolute man for the second-half of 2006.) Solid glove at multiple positions, reportedly one of the better baserunners in the American League. Was the team MVP in 2006. Injuries have played a role in uneven production. Has only cost the Royals close to the league minimum for three seasons.
So where does that leave us? The most legitimate criticism of the trade is that Baird didn't get back an elite player in return. There is a school of thought that would argue that the Royals would have been better off grabbing three 18 year old pitchers with a 1% chance of becoming elite players. (This was Sheehan's take, despite also being a somewhat old-school attitude.) What Baird did, quite obviously, was go the exact other way, walking away with three guys who nobody thought had any upside. While we could get into linguistic arguments about what makes an "elite" player, the rather incredible thing is that, actually, Teahen and Buck both have a larger chance of breaking out than most imagined for them when they were prospects. At the time, many were convinced that Baird was fixated on fitting certain positional needs, as opposed to finding the best players available. Two of his desired spots were catcher and third, where the Royals had almost nothing coming up in the system. Perhaps Baird could have pulled a better deal if he didn't think this way, but we'll likely never know. (Allard Baird's tell-all interview with RR, coming in 2011!)

At the very least, the Royals received, roughly, nine seasons of adequate performance, at the league-minimum salary from Wood, Teahen and Buck in exchange for half a season of Carlos Beltran. If either Buck or Teahen had truly flamed out, then I think we'd have to evaluate the trade differently, but of course that didn't happen. Getting low-upside guys is bland and not generally the way to go. But when you get THREE low-upside fellas who actually do alright, well, that's a different story. It's the low-upsiders who stall in AAA that kill you. Without Teahen and Buck, we'd have been cursed with even more low-level FA types that would have done nothing but waste the team's money and time. Considering what catcher has looked like, especially, this is something to be thankful for. In a pure baseball sense, Teahen's ridiculous two-month run in 2006 was about a good as Beltran ever was, so he replaced the elite production we'd lost to that trade right there. Of course, it doesn't work that way, but, there you go.

While you can't compare the environments for deals precisely, I think its safe to say Allard Baird got more for half a season of Carlos Beltran than the Twins got for a year of Johan Santana. More importantly, somewhat amazingly, the trade actually has become something of a cornerstone of the franchise. Buck and Teahen haven't become All-Stars, but they are foundational members of the roster, and have kept the Royals afloat simply by not being major disasters. There is a secret merit in simply not being terrible, in any field. Remember this my children.

The Beltran trade ended one era and began another. Unfortunately, Allard wasn't going to be part of that new age, but I think all parties are at peace with that now.  And so, Royals Review nods approvingly in the general direction of the memory of Allard Baird's time in KC. Towards Boston I guess, or wherever Allard is tonight. The Beltran trade was that rarest of creatures, a ménage a trois in which everyone, Houston, Oakland and Kansas City, left happy.



---------

Postscript

Finally, a personal note. Back in 2004, when the trade hit, I was pecking away on Blogger, long before anyone had dreamed up what would become Royals Review. The night the trade was made, I was staying at my grandparents' house. They actually had internet access, but it was a) dialup on a b) ancient computer with no memory. The kind of situation where you click the "text-only" option if you see it on a website. Sometime after dinner I saw the trade announcer on ESPN, and immediately retired to the den to post something on my blog. This was news! The world waited for me! I mean, I was gonna get like 50 hits tonight alone!

Despite also passing along Neyer's approval, I'm struck by how negative I was. But, returning to the beginning of this post, those were pretty dark times for us in Royals land. Incidentally, the trade came just as the always-frightening Cardinals series loomed, and they were, uhh, kinda awesome in 2004. Well, the Royals would be swept in that series, but that's neither here nor there. My first major post (I won't quote the whole thing) said this:

Its finally happened. Damn, the most important day of the season and the best I can do for internet is a pretty sketchy dialup on the road.

[...]
I'll focus tomorrow on what the Royals got, right now its time to think about what they've lost, and what they once had. Carlos Beltran, when you factor in his defensive value at a critical position (on a flyball staff) has to be one of the top 6 Royals ever, and probably the most complete player since Brett's retirement. Of course, I was pretty high on Sweeney once, and since then he's slid closer and closer to league average.

Finally, I guess it goes without saying that Beltran wasn't going to be resigned. Allard went for it this season, and largely because of a) the offense completely tanking and b) sporting perhaps the worst starting 5 in the AL it didn't work out. When all was lost, he started trading.

More tomorrow.

Seacrest Out.

That's the kind of brilliant analysis you can only get from a blog, huh!

Here was what I said the next day, when I really bought into the Sheehan line.

I think, in a nutshell, Sheehan's isolated the most critical issues here, and part of what became the Beltran Paradox: As noted before, and above, Beltran's an elite level talent, but, at the same time, because of his pending free agency, his trade value is somewhat hard to define. In Allard's defense, the Royals were able to get "something" out of the situation, as opposed to the compensatory pick and a bag of chips that they would've got otherwise.

That being said, is there anything else positive that can be said about this trade? Its hard to say that the ROyals really added a piece to their puzzle, or did anything that will drive them closer to a championship. They're quite high on Teahen, and, after whats happened with Berroa, perhaps that should mean a tad more than it once did. Sheehan seems to be echoing something of a stathead consensus on Teahen, namely that he's got no ceiling and limited upside. Fair enough. We can return to the original point that the Royals needed something, and in so doing, we complete the rhetorical circle.

Still, this move doesn't make the Royals better. Not better today, not better in a year, not better in 3 years. The team with the worst record in the American League just got worse.

BELIEVE

I may have to bring back the sarcastic closing-line of BELIEVE in 2008. Unfortunately, I think the Royals won't lose enough to really make it pay off.

0 recs | Comment 49 comments

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Display:

a 3,000 word post
on a trade that took place over 3 years ago

gotta love the internet

"So whattya say, should we clean this place up?" - Tom Cruise

by DyeFan187 on Feb 5, 2008 3:33 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice Breakdown
This was a great trade for the Royals.  If we were to rank the top 10 trades in Royals history what would they be?  Would this be one of them?  It may depend on what Teahen and Buck do this year, but for half a season of Beltran, who we wouldn't keep, they are solid contributors to the team with upside potential.  

by lordbyronk on Feb 5, 2008 6:30 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll be
The dissenting voice that this was a great trade for the Royals. Yea they got some useful seasons from Teahen and Buck, but was it much better than seasons they could have gotten from freely available talent?

I realize that having Beltran just a few months away from free agency but the Royals in a bind, but they also had lots of suitors to choose from. There was demand.

I think Baird's critical mistake was in demanding a third baseman and catcher. Obviously asking for a 3B was folly because just a few years later he drafted the 3B of the future. With the Royals in their position, they should have been drafting the best talent available, with a strong preference towards pitching.

I think Baird could have landed a much better deal than Teahen/Buck/Wood, and while I certainly won't call the trade a bust (its a much, much, much better trade than the Damon or Dye deal), particularly if Teahen can breakthrough this year, I'll always be wondering "what if".

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 5, 2008 9:45 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hmm...
OK, we can throw Wood out, however much he was my boy. The Royals didn't get much in return for him.

But as for teahen and buck. Look at how bad the Royals have been at finding cheap talent at ANY position, even easy ones like RF, 1B and DH. Having catcher and 3b taken care of, for awhile, is nice.

by royalsreview on Feb 5, 2008 12:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Both are above average players
It is not easy to find above average players.  It's not like the few diamonds in the rough out there are easily identifiable.  
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 5, 2008 2:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Above average?
I'm not sure we can make that statement yet.

Buck was 11th out of 25 catchers (350 PAs or more) in OPS+. That's pretty good. But in 2006 he was 20th out of 24. In 2005 he was 23rd out of 27. You're always wise to point out to us not to rely too much on the previous season, but to examine the last few seasons. Well, Buck was pretty below average for two seasons before having a spike last year. It was a good spike, and perhaps represents a new plateau in performance. But maybe it was an aberration.

Teahen was 22nd out of 26 right fielders last season (350 PAs or more). In 2006 he was sensational, finishing 8th out of 29 third basemen. And in 2005 he was 23rd out of 26.

So really, both have had two season where they were among the worst at their positions, and one season where they were above average. I don't think that's conclusive enough to say yet they are above average. They certainly have the potential, but they have also shown a great inconsistency. Whether they can achieve that potential will determine whether or not we got a good deal with Beltran.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 5, 2008 2:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good points
My "above average" comment was a little generalized and muttled.  First, they are both unproven, so we really don't know how good they are.  It is true that their careers could go in any direction from here on out.  Second, I think Teahen is an above average player in general.  Above average hitting (well above average OPS over the last two seasons), defense and speed.  But no I don't think he is above average for a RFer.  But, he could end up in CF, where his hitting (what I think his hitting will become) would be above average for that position.  

Third, I think Buck is above average for a catcher because of his age.  Players his age are still developing.  You have to put his major league seasons so far on the development curve, look at the trend and see how young he still is.  So I see him as above average at his position in 2007 and still getting better.  I don't expect greatness, or even great improvement, but I think his future is better than 2007, which was above average.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 5, 2008 2:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hope they are above average going forward
if you factor in money, they were above average bargains

by FlintHillsRoyal on Feb 5, 2008 4:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

believe
You know you really touched on something there.

In some sick way, part of the attraction of being a Royals fan these past few years has been the knowledge that the we were going to be, at best, an underdog and, at worst, the laughingstock of the league.

Sure, we all hoped for success and genuinely rooted for the players who took the field, but lurking in the back of our mind somewhere was the realization that there was a certain degree of hopelessness associated with the Royals.  Sure, we may have convinced ourselves that we might move up a spot or two in the divisional standings, but we knew deep down there was little chance of us ever taking the AL Central, and the idea of making it to the World Series was as foreign to us as living on Mars.

While we didn't exactly revel in that knowledge, there's no denying that the majority of participants of this website were, if not actively engaging in Royals-tinged gallows humor, at the very least demonstrating a healthy appreciation for it.  The team lends itself to it.

I mean, what else except for a love for, or at least tolerance of, self-deprecation would cause one to spend hours upon hours of watching, discussing, and dissecting a perennial loser?

I'm painting with a pretty broad stroke here, but I think that you'd find some definite commonalities among the denizens of Royals Review -- almost all highly educated, some exceptionally so, often statistically-oriented, possessing a strong sense of humor and wise-acre-iness, and perhaps above all a tolerance for, if not outright attraction to, a team that loses a lot.  

Which has all been a long-winded way of leading up to the point/question of this post:  what happens to Royals Review if the Royals ever become truly successful?  Does it cease to be Royals Review?

You go to any team's site, regardless of their level of success, and you'll always have bickering of the merits of Player X over Player Y, and there will always be statistical analysis bandied about, and there will always be questioning of in-game decisions by the manager.   And there's certainly some entertainment value in that.  And there's certainly some entertainment value in actually getting to root for a team that wins a whole lot.

But it's one thing if you're complaining about Neifi Perez and quite another thing if you're complaining about Alex Rodriguez.  It's one thing if you're complaining about the Red Sox as a Royals fan, and quite another complaining about them if you support the Yankees.

The first has a certain innate charm to it; the second seems to smack of asshattery.  It's the difference between the court jester making fun of the king, and the king making fun of the fool.  

And that's exactly the situation we're in now -- the Royals are the court jester of major league baseball, or at least not too far removed from it.  We have free license to mock ourselves, and those above us.  And oddly enough, I think it's this weird mixture of hope, hopelessness, humor, and mild self-loathing that makes Royals Review so fun to visit.

And sure, if the R's ever do achieve a sustainable level of success, we'll still be able to have fun stories about remote radio affiliates, or minor league reports from imaginary ranch hands, or countdowns of the top 100 players to don the powder blue.  

But something will be missing a bit.  It'll be sort of like counting down your top four favorite members of the Beatles, rather than your top four favorite members of REO Speedwagon.  It'll be like when success made Chevy Chase unfunny.  It'll be like when Starbucks went from being a Seattle oddity to an international conglomerate.  

In a way, it'll be like rubbing it in, a little.  

I guess if the trade off for becoming a good team is that the site might become a little more stiff, we'd probably all agree right now that it's worth it.  But I sort of fear what will happen when the demographics change, when the hard-core, dark-humored folks co-mingle with the happy go lucky casual bandwagoner.  In gaining success on the field, what will we be giving up?

Seacrest out.

This space intentionally left blank.

by marbotty on Feb 5, 2008 6:59 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haha... we will have to wait and see I guess
I think there will be an influx of new fans who won't be down with the old-style of Royals fandom, the kind that get some sick enjoyment out of horrible players. You can put me in that category.

One thing though. If the GMDM era doesn't work out, I really don't know what will happen to this fanbase. We can joke a lot, but I don't know how much more losing we can take.

by royalsreview on Feb 5, 2008 12:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we will turn our venom to other teams
and how pathetic they are!!!
I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me

by LeoBloom on Feb 5, 2008 12:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it will be like being a red sox fan
after they lost the curse

except a thousand times more normal

Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Feb 5, 2008 1:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where can I find this,
asshattery?  Could become a bigger craze than the cheese-head.
Let's Go Blues!

by powderbluesfor08 on Feb 7, 2008 12:31 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice analysis
great writeup.  they got a decent return, but it's a shame they couldn't get an elite pitching prospect in return for beltran, though.  

by em3 on Feb 5, 2008 8:01 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice wrap up
I agree about Wood - I was always kind of partial to him and hated how the Royals bounced him back and forth from the rotation to the pen (as well as Affeldt). Still, he hasn't exactly set the world on fire since leaving KC.

Buck has done about as well as I thought he would when we acquired him. I just think its always a bad idea to trade for a catcher unless he's a guy like Joe Mauer.

Teahen has been a disappointment thus far I think its safe to say. Not to say he can't turn it around and become a really great ballplayer, he certainly has the tools, but I don't think he's produced what was expected of him. He was clearly the centerpiece of this deal, and the results have been average to below average.

Anyone remember the trade rumors at the time? Trade rumors you can take with a grain of salt, and you never know exactly what was on the table at the time, but here are a few I found in the archives:

San Diego - OF Xavier Nady and 2B Josh Barfield

New York - 2B Robinson Cano and C Dioner Navarro

Philadelphia - OF Marlon Byrd and P Gavin Floyd

Seattle/Boston - Royals would land P Freddy Garcia (Johnny Damon and BH Kim to Seattle)

Here is what I wrote at the time:

"Not sure why Allard Baird was so fixated on landing a 3B and catcher. A team in this position should go for the best talent available instead of pigeon-holing itself into one or two positions, reducing its leverage. But that's what we have to deal with in Allard Baird.

Oh, and in four years you may want to dump all your stock. And put a lot of money on the New York Giants to win the Super Bowl."

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 5, 2008 9:40 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In hindsight
it seems ridiculous that Baird was asking for a third baseman as a part of the Beltran trade, but I think that getting Buck has put the Royals in an above-average place when it comes to catcher.  I think part of Buck's offensive inconsistency can be attributed to Buddy Bell continually messing with Buck's technique, but there have been some steady improvements, such as in his overall plate discipline and his handling of pitchers.

That being said, I think you're probably right--Baird didn't do himself many favors by focusing on two positions.  I still think this was a good trade for the Royals, given the circumstances, but not a great trade.

by DarthYoshi on Feb 5, 2008 11:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree
But look how easy it was to find a similar player in John Buck - Miguel Olivo. Trading for a catcher doesn't strike me as all that smart of an idea.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 5, 2008 11:38 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

tough question
would you take Teahen and Buck or just a single, better player?

Like, say, Cano?

You'd have to just take Cano, right?

I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me

by LeoBloom on Feb 5, 2008 12:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmmm
I'd have to vote yes on that one.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 5, 2008 1:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, sort of, I think
Aside from throwing out baserunners (which Olivio is head and shoulders better than Buck at), Buck is probably the better defensive catcher (fewer errors, fewer passed balls, better handling of a pitching staff).  Offensively they are more similar, but defensively, they are two very different catchers.  I also think, perhaps a bit unreasonably, that Buck will improve dramatically in 2008 without Bell to screw with him at the plate.  Buck could potentially give us a similar HR output as Guillen could, but from a position that is typically more of an offensive sink (especially now--I think RR is right that the catching position right now basically consists of a few greats and then a boatload of mediocre backup-types).  Combined with his improving plate discipline and defensive skills, I think we got a decent return on Buck.  Again, good, but not great.

by DarthYoshi on Feb 5, 2008 1:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the way
This thread made Baseball Think Factory
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 5, 2008 9:49 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I certainly wouldn't blame any of you
for not believing this story from a few years back, but it's true.

My friend starts talking to Mike Wood at a KC-area bar and he tells her she should stop by his place after closing -- he's having some people over.  So she gets directions and such, because after all, he's a professional athlete, am I right?  But when she shows up, he's the only one there.  (Well-played, Mike.  Well-played.)

One thing leads to another and they're on the couch making out when he gets up to go to the bathroom and comes back...with no pants on.  Like, nothing from the waist down.  Naturally, she points this out to him.  In return, he grins and simlpy says "Oops."

I guess he never was much of a closer.  

Royals, NBA, Golden Hurricane, Hawkeyes, Chiefs, and KU basketball, in that order.

by Rowyal on Feb 5, 2008 10:57 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sounds like...
a line out of a movie. Pretty cool story.

by MileHighKCfan on Feb 5, 2008 11:23 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but was she hot?
I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me

by LeoBloom on Feb 5, 2008 12:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, was she hot
Hillman, you're on notice.

by FireBell on Feb 5, 2008 1:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The thing is
We STILL don't know the value of what we received in return because of flashes of greatness and below-averageness from Teahen and Buck.  Teahen could end up as the next Aaron Rowand at best or he could be David Dellucci.  John Buck could be a sturdier version of Mike MacFarlane or he could end up an Eddie Taubensee.

The return won't be known until one or both settles in to a defined role.

"I'm tired of all these stupid a$$ questions every day. Why the f**k would I hit Brett for Miller?" The rest is history.

by DC Royal on Feb 5, 2008 11:33 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is taubensse still playing?
i think he is
I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me

by LeoBloom on Feb 5, 2008 12:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think so
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/T/Eddie-Taubensee.shtml

Looks like he hasn't played since 2001.  Then again, maybe he's hanging out with Aaron Guiel in Japan, Calvin Pickering in Korea, or Kit Pellow in Mexico.

"I'm tired of all these stupid a$$ questions every day. Why the f**k would I hit Brett for Miller?" The rest is history.

by DC Royal on Feb 5, 2008 1:13 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

one more thing about Buck
his first game with the Royals, was, literally, the day after the trade

and since then, he's basically been a rock in the lineup (in part, because of a lack of other options, to be sure)

by royalsreview on Feb 5, 2008 12:18 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In defense of Allard
One can make the argument that one should try to hit a "homerun" and take the three young pitchers with the 1% chance of becoming great, but I think Allard was coming from a distinctly different angle than any other GM would have been. I think, due to the extremely cheap manner in which Glass was "running" his franchise, the Royals farm system was so UTTERLY BEREFT of talent, and at the same time the tyrant Glass was running around EVERY DAMN YEAR making STUPID PREDICTIONS about the team being competitive this next season, blah blah blah.

Put yourself in Allard's shoes - his owner has COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS, and the reason they are unrealistic is the SHAMEFUL lack of financial investment in player development. If you try for the homerun, the team suffers even more in the short term, because of the lack of organizational depth, YET, the damn owner is on record as saying he expects a winning team!

At some point, if one is hamstrung this severely, I think most humans would be forced to turn to self survival strategies.

by loyal2s dad on Feb 5, 2008 3:50 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

RR, a supplement to this post would be to compare
and contrast what has been widely reported as an alternative deal to this one that didn't go thru:

Beltran for Kelly Shopach and Kevin Youkilis.

by loyal2s dad on Feb 5, 2008 3:52 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I listed a few
That I culled from old newspaper articles:

San Diego - OF Xavier Nady and 2B Josh Barfield

New York - 2B Robinson Cano and C Dioner Navarro

Philadelphia - OF Marlon Byrd and P Gavin Floyd

Seattle/Boston - Royals would land P Freddy Garcia (Johnny Damon and BH Kim to Seattle)

Forgot about Youks and Shoppach. No way to know if those offers were seriously on the table though.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 5, 2008 4:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Apocrypha
I don't have any problem comparing the actual trade to other possible trades, but as Retro pointed out, we have to take these reports with a grain of salt.  We don't know if these other offers were the real deal or just speculation, rumors or conjecture.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 5, 2008 4:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd take Youks or Cano
But yea, it could have been much worse than Buck and Teahen.

But like I said, we shouldn't have limited ourselves to 3B and catchers.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 5, 2008 4:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Cano one is the one that stands out.
He is one of the most valuable players in MLB now. Young, good hitter at a key defensive position, good  D.
visiting A's and Mets fan

by rfloh on Feb 5, 2008 6:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we would have ruined him
we'd have converted him to DH because we had grudz

by test on Feb 5, 2008 6:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice balanced analysis
I believe the Santana trade is going to be more similar to the Beltran trade than you think.

Gomez is already good defensively at a key defensive position, CF. If he can get to an OPS+ of around 90, he becomes an average player or thereabouts. Because of his D and baserunning, he has a larger margin for mediocrity with the bat.

Mulvey is nothing special, but a 95-100 OPS+ 200 IP, lots of groundballs type pitcher should be a fairly reasonable projection.

And Guerra is the lottery ticket.

Of course, by trading Santana, the Twins have decided to punt 2008. The opportunity cost of Baird trading Beltran was merely the draft picks.

visiting A's and Mets fan

by rfloh on Feb 5, 2008 6:31 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

very nice point
Baird had nothing to lose and basically no leverage

the mets package isnt that bad (thats what she said)

by test on Feb 5, 2008 6:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Package
I'd rather have the package the A's got for Swisher than the package the Twins got for Santana.  The Twins really screwed up by not taking either the Sox or Yankee's rumored offers (unless all of those rumors were wrong).
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 5, 2008 6:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Truth
If the Yankees really were offering Phil Hughes as the centerpiece of their Santana offer, the Twins should have pounced on that.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20.

by DarthYoshi on Feb 5, 2008 7:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed
I think its better to land one impact prospect than three pretty good prospects.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 5, 2008 10:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's definitely low
The baseline for any prediction has to be our Pythagorean record last year of 74-88.  So a prediction of 75 would be saying that the Royals will be only one win better.  That's more than a little off.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 6, 2008 2:03 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, but...
don't you also have to adjust for the divisional opponents improving?  detroit and cws got better.  and the twins (in games that santana wouldn't have started) also got getter.

so your point may be more than a little off.

by em3 on Feb 6, 2008 10:13 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Divisional opponents
The Tigers got better.  I think the White Sox got a little better, but not much better.  Swisher helps, but you also have to take into account that key parts of their lineup are old and deteriorating.  And their starting pitching is worse than last year.  The Twins lost their best player, so I think they are worse overall.  The Indians are essentially the same team.  So I don't think the changes in the AL Central affect the Royals win/loss prediction much.
I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Feb 6, 2008 12:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Twins pitching really much worse
They lost Santana, Garza, and Silva.  Now, Bonser and Baker are very good pitchers, and if Liriano comes back to play well, it'll be huge.  

Still, you can't lose three starters and not expect to feel the effect.  Throw in Hunter's departure, and they could be really struggling in 2008.

This space intentionally left blank.

by marbotty on Feb 7, 2008 6:59 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice article Will,
I wish you had more time for more pieces like this.  By the way, in case you were not already aware MLBTR linked to this story.

And for what it is worth, I am all optimism on Teahen, but my faith in Buck is very slim.  But even if Buck just continues to stumble along and Teahen never establishes himself as an above average RF I still think the trade was a coup.  After all, back in the bad old days, there just was no chance Glass would cough up the money to hold on to Beltran.  How much more could Baird have gotten for half a season of Beltran?  It was a solid trade.

by James Quinn on Feb 7, 2008 9:01 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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