Can We Please Not Say "Mid-Major" Anymore

by royalsreview on Mar 11, 2008 10:56 PM EDT in News Comment 25 comments

As far as I can tell, every conference is now either a "mid-major" or a "major". There is no term in use for just bad conferences (at least not on television), which of course make up over half of Division I. The term frankly sucked to begin with, but at least, say, three years ago you vaguely knew what it meant. Well, actually, thats not even true, since some people used "mid-major" to describe teams too, even teams that legitimately did not play in mythical "mid-major" conferences. Gonzaga, before the WCC got good, is a perfect example.

Basically, it adequately described the Missouri Valley and the old WAC and C-USA (and sometimes the MAC) and teams therein with some accuracy. Now? Just forget about it. The whole point was the "mid" part. Without a bottom, there can be no middle.

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I've never known what that meant

Go Maryland! Snag a 16 seed!

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Mar 11, 2008 11:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Like how you can't buy a "small" soda

Many, perhaps most, fast food places have done away with small, medium and large sizes. They did away with the small and added some super gigantic size. So now the smallest size is "medium." That just doesn't make sense. Similarly, all non-major conferences are "mid-majors." Jargon can be fun, but it is usually silly. And when it is overused, it becomes annoying.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Mar 11, 2008 11:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Taking this in a different direction

In NCAA baseball, if we are going to use the term mid-majors, it would apply to the Big-10 and Big East, while the Big West, C-USA and Sun Belt would fall more in the upper group.

Here are the final conference RPI rankings from 2007:
1 0.574 430 285 432 285 SEC
2 0.572 435 282 435 282 ACC
3 0.572 362 234 369 234 Big 12
4 0.564 314 213 314 214 Pac 10
5 0.547 305 237 306 238 C-USA
6 0.536 246 222 248 222 Big West
7 0.527 337 293 340 296 Sun Belt
8 0.527 283 222 291 224 MVC
9 0.518 385 304 386 306 Big East
10 0.518 223 212 229 214 WCC
11 0.516 312 282 312 282 Southern
12 0.512 291 266 298 266 Big Ten
13 0.511 234 223 234 224 Big South
14 0.503 289 289 290 291 Atlantic Sun
15 0.498 299 298 302 298 CAA
16 0.495 326 352 329 352 Southland
17 0.486 211 204 215 204 WAC
18 0.484 192 203 198 205 Mountain West
19 0.472 291 331 312 336 MAC
20 0.465 247 290 263 293 OVC
21 0.461 337 413 342 413 Atlantic 10
22 0.457 131 140 134 140 Patriot
23 0.454 190 235 190 235 NEC
24 0.451 157 205 159 206 America East
25 0.442 133 186 135 189 Ivy
26 0.441 212 291 214 291 MAAC
27 0.440 137 188 151 189 Horizon
28 0.437 130 183 152 187 Mid-Continent
29 0.435 258 420 292 434 Independents
30 0.412 131 235 134 235 MEAC
31 0.408 158 248 204 263 SWAC

Rock Chalk Talk for pretty good KU College Baseball Coverage

by James Quinn on Mar 11, 2008 11:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

go big ten!

you sure these aren't the football rankings?

by royalsreview on Mar 11, 2008 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

chuckle

The Big-10 is making a big push to establish itself as a competitive baseball conference. A lot of new stadiums going up. Apparently Penn State's new field is great.

Iowa, Penn State, Ohio State and Michigan were all supposed to be good teams this year. So far they have all under-achieved. Apparently there is a lot of hand wringing going on among the Big-10 baseball boosters.

Rock Chalk Talk for pretty good KU College Baseball Coverage

by James Quinn on Mar 11, 2008 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

College baseball in the upper midwest

Just doesn't work out too well. They can't start playing outdoor baseball until March, while programs in the southern half of the country can start outdoor practices and games months earlier. It's going to be an uphill climb for the Big 10.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Mar 11, 2008 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Try college baseball up here...

there'll be snow on the field into April and then it'll flood, after which the field will be mud for two weeks. Our baseball team plays quite a few away games.

A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.

by NHZ on Mar 12, 2008 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

KU just played LeMoyne College last week.

A 6,000 student Jesuit college in Syracuse NY. They have been to the NCAA tournament three of the last five years. Good team. The Royals drafted a pitcher out of LeMoyne last year in the 9th round. He turned KC down and returned to school.

It is possible. Significantly harder, but even North Eastern schools can build a good program.

Rock Chalk Talk for pretty good KU College Baseball Coverage

by James Quinn on Mar 12, 2008 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This argument only goes so far

Nebraska, Kansas and Missouri all have the same weather to deal with as much of the Big-10. The NCAA created the universal start date this year. This year there was an NCAA nation-wide opening day (third weekend of February) to reduce the advantage of the warm weather schools.

Oregon State won the last two national championships and they certainly are not in the sun belt.

Weather is a factor, but many schools have overcome it. The NCAA has tried to minimize the disparity. Anyway, it is a factor, but geography does not doom a school to failure in college baseball. I think institutional support far out-weighs weather in determining if a school will have a competitive baseball program. I sense the Big-10 is blaming the snow when the real problem is in the athletic departments.

Rock Chalk Talk for pretty good KU College Baseball Coverage

by James Quinn on Mar 12, 2008 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the weather

Is not so much a factor for practicing for the northern schools. Its that the high schools in northern climates aren't as good at baseball because they can't play nearly as many games as their southern counterparts, and this is where a lot of northern schools draw their talent from.

I went to Ohio State when they built their new stadium, which landed them a super-regional. Attended nearly every game (my roomate was the starting catcher). The most thrilling sporting event I have ever been to was when Chad Ehrnsberger hit a game winning grand slam in front of a jam packed stadium in Game One of a Super Regional against a good Fullerton team that had Kirk Saarloos and Reed Johnson. We lost the series, but man that was a thrilling game.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 12, 2008 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

High School and Ohio

I have seen some statistics from Northern high schools and Canadian high schools. It is crazy. Some of them only play 15 games all year. The way a talented kid can work around this is playing on a summer travel team, but this requires a lot of time from the parents and also normally costs a fair bit. These teams have to pay the coaches, field rentals and for the umpires at games. I think it often runs into several thousand dollars per summer. But if the kids do not play on these teams their chances of developing and being noticed for NCAA scholarships (or drafted out of high school) are much lower. There are American Legion teams but I think this is not always a good option for players.

When these issues are talked about they normally come up during discussions of why there are fewer minority players now. I'm not at all sure that is the heart of the issue, but it probably does play a factor.

I have heard good things about the OSU stadium. How is attendance at the games? I have friends in Columbus and found it to be a surprisingly okay city. I lived outside of Cincinnati for 5 years and went to college at UD, but it wasn't until after I graduated that I got to know Columbus at all. I guess because of the Ohio rivalry thing I had developed a predudice against Cleveland and Columbus earlier.

Rock Chalk Talk for pretty good KU College Baseball Coverage

by James Quinn on Mar 12, 2008 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dayton

Just a stone's throw from Columbus. Lovely city. Go Flyers.

OSU drew really well when the stadium first opened. The team was competing for the Big Ten title annually too, breaking the Top 25 every once in awhile. Not sure how they're doing now.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 12, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dayton

I would never call it a lovely city. But the four years I spent there were among the happiest in my life. UD was not a bad choice at all.

While I was a student there I went to most of the home football and basketball games. Their baseball team at the time simply did not register on my radar. They played on what basically was a high school field with a few temporary metal bleachers set up on game days. They have a much nicer facility now I understand.

I was in the same class as Neagle Knight so I lived through a semi-glory period for basketball. My senior year the Flyers made it to the second round of the NCAA and ended up ranked #16 in the polls. Knight just oozed confidence on the court. Still to this day I would trust him with my life in a crisis. That, "Just get me the ball. We are not losing today." attitude on the court. Watching him bring the ball up the court with a hard dribble, arranging his ogre teammates, and then simply executing. I still remember the admiration I had for him 20 years later.

Rock Chalk Talk for pretty good KU College Baseball Coverage

by James Quinn on Mar 12, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

On the contrary

KC is always described as "small market." Dammit, if George Mason is mid-major, KC is a mid-major market too!

by raefzilla on Mar 12, 2008 12:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Baseball Starts In

June up here, and football starts in August.

I'm not getting older....oh, wait, yes I am....and slower.... and weaker. God, this is great!

by philofthenorth on Mar 12, 2008 12:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

In my mind

Mid-Major conferences include:

West Coast Conference
Missouri Valley Conference
Colonial Athletic Conference
Mid-American Conference
Western Athletic Conference
Mountain West Conference
Horizon Conference

Mid-Majors?
Sun Belt Conference - really only Western Kentucky and maybe Southern Alabama have traditionally been strong enough to pull off an upset
Ivy League Conference - really only Penn and Princeton are any good

Everyone else is pretty crappy. Really, they should consider demoting some of these conferences.

Speaking of which, I think its time UMKC went down to Division II and participated in the MIAA.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 12, 2008 9:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

A-10?

I went to Dayton, so I follow the A-10. Not a bad basketball conference at all. Might be a tick under the MVC, but better that all the others on your list.

C-USA? Very unbalanced, but not horrible by any means.

Rock Chalk Talk for pretty good KU College Baseball Coverage

by James Quinn on Mar 12, 2008 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh yea

Forgot the A-10 and C-USA. Definitely mid-majors.

The Southern and Big South conferences are also knocking on the door to be mid-majors. Davidson and Winthrop have beaten some BCS teams in the past and have a good shot of pulling off an upset this March.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 12, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

a-10

yea, a-10 has been there from time to time

sometimes it gets really good, like, better than the big 12 right now, then it falls back again

by royalsreview on Mar 12, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

UMKC

I don't believe UMKC has a football team, but I could be wrong. It would be hard for them to join such a football rich conference as the MIAA without a football team. And even if they have one, I seriously doubt it can compete with NW Missouri State, Pitt State, Washburn, MO West and the likes.

by MileHighKCfan on Mar 12, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They don't have football

But there are a lot of schools in the MIAA that don't have particularly strong football programs. Truman State comes to mind.

I don't know if football is a requirement to be in the MIAA - I suspect it probably is now that you mention it, so yea, that would be a pretty big impediment.

One development that is a step forward for UMKC is they do want to build a small on-campus basketball facility which I think could help them quite a bit.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 12, 2008 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

UMKC

I'm not sure of the requirement for the MIAA but I would think no football team would indeed be a pretty big impediment. And yes, Truman State does not have a great football program, but they do have football.

I think an on-campus basketball arena would be huge for UMKC. Nobody wants to go to Kemper or Municipal to see UMKC basketball. Hell, I would have gone to some games when I lived near the campus had they had their own court.

by MileHighKCfan on Mar 12, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

this is kind of my territory...

so i figured i would chime in.

basically, i consider any consistent multi-bid leagues "majors".

sure, they arent on the level of the 6 BCS conferences (big 12, big 10/11, big east, acc, sec, pac 10), but if you can consistently get a couple of teams in the NCAAs then you shouldnt be called a "mid-major" any more.

this means that the following conferences are "majors" in my book, just not on the same level as the top 6 BCS conferences:

missouri valley
atlantic 10/14
mountain west
conference USA

i am tempted to put the horizon up there too, but they dont fit the criteria so whatevs. so, that is the "Top 10" conferences in the country IMO. i dont know if it comes out like that with the RPI, but whatevs. then, IMO, is my "mid-major" category, which consists of the following conferences:

horizon
western athletic (WAC)
MAC
colonial
west coast
sun belt

then, there is the third tier. these conferences usually have a realistic shot of springing an upset or two in the NCAAs, but it certainly isnt a yearly thing:

MAAC (yes, there is a MAC and a MAAC)
summit league (UMKC's conference)
big west
patriot (bucknell, anyone?)
southern
big south
america east

that leaves 8 conferences left. and while i try and watch all of these championship games, and thoroughly enjoy the small-school-vibes of the conference tournaments, these folks 9 times outta 10 dont hold their own in the NCAAs. i love the system, and love the fact that at least one team from their conference has a chance to cause some havoc, they arent on the same level:

southland
MEAC
SWAC
ohio valley
atlantic sun
northeast (NEC)
big sky
ivy league

boom.

hopefully that wasnt too confusing, and it is only my opinion.

by rockchalk on Mar 12, 2008 9:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Mid-majors

if you can consistently get a couple of teams in the NCAAs then you shouldnt be called a "mid-major" any more

Actually, I think consistently getting a couple of teams into the tournament is pretty much the definition of a mid-major (if mid-major means anything other than a conference outside of the big six). There's a big difference between the major conferences who routinely get 4+ teams into the tournament and the next 4 of 5 who routinely get only 2 in.

I probably disagree with you.

by NYRoyal on Mar 12, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs